Bonus Episode - The Leadership Journey featuring Erin O’Toole

I’d like to begin this episode by acknowledging the land that I am learning and living on is the traditional unceded, un-surrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishnaabeg People.

Our leadership journey is ours alone, but the path isn’t a straight line. In fact, your leadership journey will have high and low points. Your journey will have you questioning your abilities and pushing your self-confidence, and you know what? But also, your journey will be filled with moments of pride knowing you helped people, that you made a real, tangible difference in those you are lucky enough to lead. 

And you know what, all of this is absolutely ok. 

It’s your journey, and as long as you keep your mind open to learning and new possibilities, your path will take you exactly where you need to go.

In this episode, you’ll hear from Erin O’Toole, a former Member of Parliament for Durham, ON, former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, and RCAF veteran, who will share his leadership journey, offering what he has seen and experienced during multiple career and leadership pivots. Erin will explain how his experiences have, and continue to, shape the kind of leader he is, and where he hopes his leadership journey will take him next. 

Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #7 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2023.

Transcript

Simon: [00:00:00] hello and welcome to trench leadership, a podcast from the front, a show for emerging leaders. Folks. Our leadership journey is [00:01:00] ours alone, but the path is never a straight line. In fact, your leadership journey will have high points and low points.

Your leadership journey will have you questioning your abilities and pushing your self confidence. And you know what? That's okay. Because your journey will also be filled with moments of pride knowing you helped people. That you made a real, tangible difference in those you are lucky enough to lead. And you know what?

That's also absolutely okay. It's your journey. And as long as you keep your mind open to learning new and amazing possibilities, your path will take you exactly where you need to go. And so in this episode, you'll hear from Erin O'Toole, Member of Parliament for Durham, Ontario, and the former leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, an RCF veteran, family man, and all the things so proud to be in Canada.

Erin will share his leadership journey, offering what he has seen and experienced during multiple career and leadership pivots. Erin will explain his experiences, have, and continue to [00:02:00] shape the kind of leader that he is. And where he hopes, and where he hopes his leadership journey will take him next.

But, as always, it's not about me, it's about the guest, so I'm going to try and be quiet and go ahead and welcome in Erin. Hey Erin, how's it going today?

Erin: It's going well. Thanks, Simon. It's good to be with you. And thanks for doing such an innovative podcast on, on leadership and our, our various journeys through life.

Simon: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and for saying those kind words. This is, podcast is definitely a part of my leadership journey and just the love of trying to be, want to be able to help people in various ways. And that's part of the conversation we'll have a little bit later on. But it's not about me.

And before we get into your journey, maybe we'll just go ahead and we'll do the visual introduction. And so for myself, I'm wearing my black golf shirt with the red trench leadership logo over my heart. I still have my glasses on, which have the black rims still far too much gray hair on the sides of my head.

As far as I'm concerned. My headphones are black and in the background. I have a screenshot. It's a stone wall with the trench leadership logo hanging. Of course. [00:03:00] The logo is white and the, uh, the background image is purple leader. Erin. Would you mind taking a moment and giving us your visual introduction?

Erin: Sure. Um, my backdrop is my office here on Parliament Hill, and it speaks to a big part, probably the most important part of my leadership journey behind me is that's a portrait of the queen, uh, the late queen. Uh, done up by Afghan war veterans as part of a war therapy project before the Invictus Games and donated to me by the artist from Vancouver who, who, uh, did that great work with the veterans foster Eastman.

There's a seeking helicopter that I got when I left my time, uh, some incredible war art and other things. The campaign plane that we flew on in the, uh, secure the future, uh, the, the journalist called it. Um, some Canadian artwork, some indigenous art, kind of a reflection of a number of my interests. I'm, [00:04:00] over my heart, wearing, or close to it, the Canada and Ukraine flag.

Um, I, I try and wear that or, or ribbon or, uh, gold and, and blue as some way every day to show support for Ukraine, uh, in their fight against Putin and the invasion, illegal invasion by Russia. Um, I'm hoping I don't have to wear this. For a long time, but this spring will be critical there and as you can tell, my desk is not as tidy as it should be right now to start the week off, but I've been traveling a bit.

I was in, uh, in Alberta a couple of weeks ago and a bit of a mess at the moment, but I'll, I'll tidy it up for inspection later. And that's kind of the shot. I, I do a podcast to Simon. So I, I do use podcast. A nice Yeti mic and, and headphones just for the sound quality, even though we both kind of look like air traffic controllers, uh, here at our offices, but it, it helps with the quality and, uh, looking forward to a quality discussion today.

Simon: Well, thanks so much [00:05:00] for providing just a very quick snapshot of your background. You had alluded to your time in the military. You were the leader of the federal opposition for a number of years. There were many things that were going on and as, as memory serves, you're also a lawyer, is that correct?

Erin: I am, yeah, the joke is, I, you know, I don't talk a lot about that because people like military veterans better than they like corporate lawyers, but both my military time and my legal time have, have really served me well here on Parliament Hill.

Simon: Oh, I could imagine. And it seems to me that there are many different paths. Those different professions have taken you from politician to a lawyer, corporate lawyer. It sounds like to a military officer. There are very different ways to go and look at leadership. And that's kind of leading us into our first point of.

The whole episode is where we're going to talk about where our leadership journeys are going to take us and realizing we have no idea where they're going to go. So I guess I'd like to ask you the question when you started your military career, because if memory serves correctly, yeah, you, [00:06:00] that's, that was the first kind of formalized thing you did with the, was, was as a leader and, and then you became a lawyer later on.

Is that correct?

Erin: Yeah, yeah, that was the order.

Simon: Okay. So with that in mind, did you ever, did you see any type of correlation between the leadership that is very formalized inside the military and that with being a lawyer and that was a being a politician? Are there any connections? What are the differences? What do you think? How did, where did that path take you?

Erin: Um, well, I can make the comparisons on that. Or do you want me to walk through that leadership journey now to talk about each stage? Or do you want to save that for later?

Simon: Well, maybe we'll talk about the journey and I think that that will actually lead into the different comparisons and the differences.

Erin: Yeah, no, I think I think you're right. So, so look, the most formative part of my life was serving in the Canadian Armed Forces. It defines who I am in many ways, my patriotism, my outlook, my views on Canada's place in the world. [00:07:00] Much to the chagrin of my staff and my family, my, uh, love for schedules and, and, uh, checklists and, and sort of goal setting.

But I, I, uh, I joined the military because I fell in love with RMC and the idea of learning leadership skills while pushing yourself physically and mentally. I, the first time I ever moved away from home, I took a summer job. It's about inspecting pipeline for trans Canada pipelines as part of a summer crew that was mainly for university students or college students, but I got the job through my grandfather.

While I was still in high school, and I used to run and bike around Kingston, and I would often bike over on the R. M. C. campus or out towards Gananoque, and I kind of said, wow, what is this place? You know, my grandfathers had served in the military, but we weren't really a military family. The Toronto suburbs really didn't have much visibility for the [00:08:00] military.

And so it was really stumbling across that, that sort of Historic and and impressive campus of the Royal Military College in Kingston that led me to look into the military and that decision in grade 13 to join the military really changed my life and it's really given me so much and really still fuels my my drive today.

So I went to RMC, um, spent my time in the summers training to be an air navigator. In my last year at RMC, I tried to change from air navigator to infantry because I saw the air navigator Air Force trade kind of diminishing with GPS and other things and that role was changing more into a weapons and systems officer job and we were in Kosovo and I really thought Some of my friends that were serving with the RCR and doing their their Gagetown summers Had more of a direct opportunity to serve Canada's national interests abroad.

So I tried to change the [00:09:00] military Said no Um, and I, I went through for, for nav and got my wings and had no regrets, but I often thought it was funny. A few years later, the military was paying navigators to get out of the military and were desperately short for infantry and combat arms officers. I had put my hand up and volunteered to do that.

So it kind of, I got an early glimpse on how sometimes Ottawa and the puzzle palace is not the most logical place in our country, but the, my air force time in Trenton, uh, Uh, at the RCC, Rescue Coordination Center, then Winnipeg to get my wings. Then I was posted out to Surewater, Nova Scotia on Seeking Helicopters.

And we served alongside the Navy. That was a great decision because I met my wife, Rebecca, in Halifax. And when I finished my obligatory service to, uh, to the ROTP program, I transferred to the reserves and went to law school. So that was my first sort of pivot after the [00:10:00] military. And I worked as a reservist.

Running the operational simulator while I was at law school. Um, I was driving from law school to the base when 9 11 happened, and I'll never forget how the military suddenly had a cardinal heading in in the Gulf and Afghanistan eventually, and I was in the process of in the reserves and ultimately leaving.

So these these pivot points in your life, you you know, you'll you'll take a lot from them. For the rest of your life. So we then moved and I started a corporate law job in Toronto and and my wife who had worked in sports took a job ultimately with the Toronto Argonauts and worked in sports and entertainment in Toronto and I began a corporate law career and my colleagues and the folks that were still in the military, my, my buddies, We're either supporting or deploying to the mission in Afghanistan.

So that really inspired me to try and connect the [00:11:00] Toronto business community more with the military mission. And, um, I hosted General Hillier for an event in Toronto, and we made a donation to the newly formed Military Families Fund. And Rick Hillier challenged us to do more. So a good friend of mine, Sean Francis, Suggested that we hold a big dinner to show support for the troops and to raise money for the Military Families Fund.

Uh, several other people got involved and that became the True Patriot Love Foundation. And so... I felt purpose in that, in that I was in my corporate career, I wasn't part of the, of what the Canadian Armed Forces were doing, but I felt like I was helping in a way that I could, particularly having stood a few times on the Highway of Heroes, uh, and having watched the impact of loss on family, we wanted to, to help families, and so TPL, as I call it, Um, was my outlet for supporting military causes while I was in the corporate world.

[00:12:00] And then I did law for about 10 years at big law firms and five years as in house counsel to Procter and Gamble, which was a really interesting time. And then I ran for parliament in a by election, um, that came up when my MP resigned. And. I assembled a team, much like you might get a mission team together, and we raised money, knocked on doors, and I was elected to Parliament.

Nobody knew who the heck Erin O'Toole was, and I sat in the corner by the curtains on the, on the opposite side of the house. But then I kind of worked my way up through the ranks there, based on what I had done in the private sector, largely. But then the government was having difficulty with the veteran file, and so Stephen Harper, as Prime Minister, came to me.

And asked me to basically turn a department that was in crisis around because of my service and because of my true patriot love work. And so, you know, these transitions and experiences you take really [00:13:00] prepare you for leadership challenges down the road. And had I not served myself and had I not been an active leader within the kind of support veterans, support military family space, I don't think I could have succeeded in that role.

And while we didn't get everything done we wanted to. I certainly think we enhanced mental health support services. We, we, we listened and made sure that veterans knew they were being heard. I settled, at least temporarily, a lawsuit from veterans called the Equitas, uh, Class Action Lawsuit, and I was fortunate to have three veterans who I hired to work in my office to show veterans that not only were we going to listen to them.

I was going to have people who had served helping me design new programs and get supports in place. Um, and then that work I did led to some of my colleagues saying, hey, when we lost the 2015 election, uh, you'd make a [00:14:00] great leader of the party. And my, my main problem, Simon, was I wasn't a career politician, and I hadn't had many scandals or drama, so nobody knew who the heck I was.

And so, I had to, and maybe they still don't, although I do get recognized a lot now. But, I ran for the leadership twice, because the first time I wasn't well known enough, and I I beat Kevin O'Leary, uh, the, the Dragon's Dead and Shark Tank guy. But, um, but I came third in that one, then won the next one, and then served as opposition leader during COVID.

Um, really, I view my role during that time as trying to put the national interests first. And keep the conservative movement together. It was it was tough when provincial governments had to have health restrictions that limited the liberties of people and promoted vaccines. And that was opposite to what a lot of conservatives feel government should [00:15:00] be.

They shouldn't be big government. They shouldn't be controlling. They shouldn't be restricting your liberties. There has to be a balance in a pandemic. So I like to think I helped the conservative party through a very difficult time. We almost won the election. Um, but then the frustrations by not losing the not winning the election and the general frustrations.

Um, writ large in society after several years of lockdowns and measures led many of my MPs to want to make a change. And so I gave up the leadership after after losing a vote under the Reform Act. But I think it's best because what where I wanted. Things to go, I think, um, a lot of our MPs disagreed with and, you know, that's our democratic right.

You don't always get. The winning side of it. I've had many wins in politics that have been many accomplishments. I'm very proud of but Also a few losses. It's just I was a hell of a lot better known [00:16:00] for my losses than my early wins My community kind of knew who I was when I was appointed to cabinet and all these sorts of things But the whole country knew who I was in the election when we got more votes than trudeau, but not more seats So I'm about to do another pivot, uh, myself, Simon.

So this summer, you know, I'll be, uh, wrapping up and the parliamentary session will end. I'll do Canada Day and, and pack up and move back into the private sector. And so, gosh, I'm 50. It's starting to look like I can't hold down a job, Simon, for more than a few years. But, uh, that's kind of my journey in a nutshell.

Of course. The folks that have sacrificed the most on my journey have been my family, much like military families. Um, my career was just so overwhelming and we moved several times, my wife left her job. Um, that's one of the reasons why I think it's a good time for me to pivot and change so that my family gets to be [00:17:00] the masters of their own direction and not election cycles and the pressures of the job.

But it has been an incredible 10 years in public life.

Simon: Well, thank you so much for that. And there's so much in this, I, there's a few points I just would really like to keep on going with it, that would be all right with you.

Erin: Sure, yeah.

Simon: Fantastic. Well, so the first one is, and arguably in my mind, one of the most important ones is that I'm a huge CFL fan, and I happen to be a Bombers fan.

So we got robbed last year at the Grey Cup. I don't care what anyone tells me, but a new season started. So one of the other things, you talked about your time in the RCAF, so the Royal Canadian Air Force. I actually am in the RCAF right now as a reservist. I spent a little over 21 years as a regular force member.

I was, uh. I started in the infantry with the Rocanita Regiment out in Fredericton near Gagetown, and then I did five years of that. Broke my ankles a bunch of times, time to do something else, so here I am. And I became what was called an Aircraft Structures Technician, and [00:18:00] so it's kind of like AMES for structures for the civilian industry.

And I did that for a bunch of years, got promoted, and I'm currently the Squadron Warrant Officer as a Master Warrant Officer at 412 Squadron here in Ottawa as well. So, Yeah, it's a really cool gig. I really enjoyed doing that. And I love being back in the military and being able to serve and lead and have those privileges that, that come with those responsibilities.

And it's an interesting, as you talked about being in the RCAF and even though you didn't, they didn't accept you into the, into the infantry for whatever reason, um, I found it interesting as a navigator, especially a navigator who was. Attached with the Navy, I guess. I don't know right the proper terminology, but you were flying around on sea kings.

Most often a lot of people what the joke is when you talk about the air force is how cushy our lives are how? How how plush the hotels are? You don't generally see a lot of that on the ships, especially on the canadian ships because they're not large So I I wonder [00:19:00] When you had those types of living experiences, the actual physical living spaces, being on top of other people, having all the stresses that come with bouncing around on a boat, the stress of flying and all back then was an aging helicopter platform and all of the different things that come with that and still doing the job and being a leader.

Did you find a lot of connections with that type of lifestyle as you moved over into the corporate, uh, lawyer environment? Did that, does that make sense at all?

Erin: Yeah, well there's a, there's. A bit I'd like to unpack from that, Simon. Yeah, you're right. The Air Force gets this impression of being a cushy. Um, as one U. S. vet once said to me, you were in the chair for us. Uh, you're on, you're on your ass as I was kicking indoors. Uh, he was, he was right in many ways, but on ship, um, Yeah, I was in the junior officer's cabin on our frigates.

I sailed on HMCS St. John's and so we had six guys in a very small cabin, much smaller than this office that I'm in [00:20:00] now. And I was actually in there with a good friend of mine, Daniel Regan. Who's Seamus's O'Regan's brother and, uh, and so I knew Seamus before he was elected, uh, to, to parliament because literally, um, I, I think Danny was, he was on the lower bunk and I was on the, uh, the top bunk, I think, and I was the only Air Force guy in that cabin.

So the, the, the watch keepers, the young naval officers were constantly getting woken up in the middle of the night to, to go do their watch. And so it wasn't cushy, but it was an amazing experience for me to see the Navy. So in Canada, post unification, uh, forced on the military by Justin's father, Pierre Trudeau, the only thing that hasn't really been undone from unification of the Canadian armed forces was the naval air component.

So we are an air force detachment. On a naval ship. So we're Air Force kind [00:21:00] of lent from our squadron to the ship, uh, both before and during deployment. In the past, we would have been naval air. We would have had our wings on our on our sleeves and we would have stood watch and got our bridge watch keepers ticket.

I kind of wish we went back to that, but we don't have a large enough naval allocation. Air arm to justify that. Um, but that's a unique distinction. I don't often get to talk about and nobody really knows what a navigator is. So half the time I get called a pilot or half the time I'll get called a tactical officer because on seeking we were known as tacos tactical coordinators.

Um, I would often explain it to people that didn't understand the military. You know, Top Gun, I was Goose, not Maverick, but the good thing is I didn't die. And, uh, but I, I love that time. And when I went into the corporate world, I found I had such an advantage [00:22:00] because I had been through pressure cookers.

I'd been through bootcamp and recruit term at RMC. I'd been through pretty tough training. Perhaps not as tough as combat arms and some of the, some of the specialized training that some people in the military get, but that ability to take the pressure and the, the chaos around you and formulate a plan and keep your head while those around you are losing theirs as, as the old poem goes, that was the best trait I took from the military was the ability to think under pressure.

And not lose my composure because of pressure. Um, sometimes people take that trait and sort of say, Oh, he doesn't care. No, no, no. I, I do care, but I'm not going to lose my shit. If I can say that, because I found that will not help you out [00:23:00] of the position you're in. And so I, I took that approach to both business and to politics where I found for a lot of the young lawyers who were a few years younger than me that I was starting out with.

Any deadline, any pressure led to a lot of stress, a lot of craziness. And I kind of just said, this is not pressure. You know, what our men and women are doing today in Afghanistan, that is pressure. Um, that is, and I, I used to use the example, um, hunting a submarine at night in our little sea king, if you lost that submarine, you know, we were training, so it wasn't hunt for red October or anything, but if you lost it and you, you pulled up your sonar and you dipped in another area and that ping didn't come back, you'd lost the submarine, he'd, he'd evaded you.

You blew the mission for your whole crew and you're sitting in an immersion suit, uh, because it's over the North Atlantic. You're sweating your, your bottoms [00:24:00] off. And, um, you know, that is pressure. And I kind of went when the military trained you to encounter that type of stress and pressure so that you respond appropriately in an operational theater or that training is invaluable for life.

And I think it has led me to have success. In in other pursuits after the military. So I'm really grateful. And I've often said I took more out of the military than it took out of me because, you know, apart from a little hearing damage from basic training. Um, I left in just as good a form as they got me when I was 18 and I joined.

I know so many others who who have left with significant injuries. So I consider myself very, very fortunate and the skills and experiences and friendships And exposure to the country that I got in the military is priceless. I learned French at RMC. [00:25:00] If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been able to debate Justin Trudeau in French.

Some might say it wasn't as eloquent as him, but I, uh, I think I got the better of him in one of our French debates. Um, and so that was another skill I took from the military. So, um, I'm very fortunate for my military service and every subsequent pivot, I've taken those skills and used them in new places.

Ha ha ha.

Simon: Well, it's interesting. You bring that up because a couple of points, the first one would be, uh, the military also sent me to go learn French. And it happened to be that the year I was doing the year long French course, that debate was happening. So they sat us down and we watched the debate. And I got to tell you, like, I understood what you were saying.

So, and if I can understand it, your French is amazing because to get through this thick skull, uh, it, and it, that's a big part of the thing is we don't know where. Our journeys will take us and, and a lot of times, especially in the military [00:26:00] environments, even saying our journey can be viewed as this ethereal thing.

We're like, Ooh, it's this magical thing, but it's not our actually, we're actually taking a path and that path matters because, and where, where it leads us matters because we have two choices. We can either take it on the way we want to go with it. Or we can just let it take us where it's going to take us.

And I'm not suggesting one is better than the other, but it's also, I would think that it's good to have ownership of it and let it go where it wants to go. Do you have any thoughts on that? Or do you believe in the hard pressing way to go with it?

Erin: [00:27:00] No, I agree with you 100%. The journey is... Is yours to, to own. Uh, it's your life is your own. Choose your own adventure novel where you, you can decide at various turning points at that, you know, Robert Frost Path in the Woods. What journey to take and the, and the judgment and experience and knowledge you have from the previous few years of your journey help you set off in the new way.

I actually really appreciate your approach to Journey, Simon, because. When I was minister, and even before I was minister, I often talk about people's wellness journey, particularly if they have a mental health condition or mental health. Injury from service [00:28:00] because I started an event years ago with Romeo Dallaire on mental health called the Sam Sharp Breakfast that brings together, you know, the military, the veterans, some media, the health and wellness, uh, mental health community to hear a Canadian Armed Forces veteran, a first responder or their family talk about their wellness journey.

And the first time we did this, Romeo Dallaire said to me. Erin, don't use the term recovered or healed from operational stress injury, because often you will do well for a time and you learn to manage your condition, but there is never a fully recovered check mark you get. It is much like a journey. And that's what he, he said to me and that struck me so well because especially veteran that might have a mental health injury.[00:29:00] 

10 years later, they could have the loss of a spouse or, or, you know, another pressure in their life that can aggravate an underlying injury that to that date hadn't been something that had given them anxiety or, or depression or sleeplessness or, um, so it's, it's a journey that involves your career, involves your family, involves your, your living circumstances, involves The global pandemic involves health restrictions and social media and all the pressures on people and I think the more you talk about your journey and the more you plan to look at life like a journey, uh, the more it helps.

And I think particularly on the mental wellness piece, um, that, that journey is something you're to, to, to be well and to be satisfied and to find purpose. It's almost always like that journey where the destination is just over the next hill. And you, [00:30:00] you mount that hill. And it's just over the next one, but if you can keep that positivity and if you can feel a sense of purpose, the journey itself is the reward if, if you're fulfilled and if you're happy and, um, you know, that's the way I've taken it, including through some tough parts of my journey in the last couple of years, losing an election, having to give up the leadership, um, you know, seeing the impact on my own family of some of the moves and other pressures we've had.

Um, I'm constantly making sure that The next hill on my journey is something that, um, brings, brings opportunity, brings purpose, brings wellness, just like, like anyone else on their leadership journey.

Simon: Well, thank you very much for that. I have a couple of different thoughts. The first one would be When we're like for your examples about mental wellness and mental health. I know for myself I like I I joined the infantry way back in [00:31:00] 1994 and uh, my company was involved with the my infantry company was the quick reaction force and we were sent to go do Rescue slash recovery for swissair flight 111 at peggy's cove Uh, and this was late 90s mid to late 90s been how you want to look at it And back then in the military, the Canadian military, I can't speak for others.

Uh, you just didn't talk about mental health. You just, you just didn't, if any sign of it more often than not, it was viewed as a weakness, if you said you had any type of issue, I'm confident you probably experienced similar types of things. If I, and I don't want to make an assumption, if I'm wrong, please feel free to shut me down.

Um, but one of the things that came up out of that, I remember was they were. Finally, they the system, the medical health system was finally realizing that people are being affected in more ways than the physical showing of a broken back or an ankle or an arm or whatnot, that the damage being done just because we couldn't see it in the form of a physical disability was there [00:32:00] and they were trying to their, their, their, their effort.

I give them that. And, and the example I like to use really quickly, I promise I'll get to my

Erin: No, this you'll be amazed with what I have to say next. So keep going.

Simon: Okay. Fantastic. Uh, I remember, so we, we went through the, uh, the event as, as I like to call it, whether going into a lot more details, uh, it was a week of some tough times and at the end of it, my, so in the, in the infantry, a platoon is a comprised of 30 people at the time, my platoon happened to be all guys.

And so they sat us down, we're thinking we're, we're in some rec hall and we're thinking, okay, we're just waiting for the bus to pick us up to take us back home. And all of a sudden they said, no, no. Into, into this other room, we go into this gym and there's a big giant circle of chairs and the one chair in the middle.

So we all sat down and someone comes cruising in, they sit down and hi, I'm so and so. I'm a social worker. That was really tough. Who wants to tell you, tell us, talk about your feelings and what happened. Talking about 30 infantry guys who just went through a very traumatic event. And of course, no one said [00:33:00] anything.

There was, the crickets were extremely loud. Uh, and it's, it's a tough thing to get through. And what I remember was two things. A, I am, it. I'm never going to say anything because I'm not going to, because I'm just too macho to do that. And this young 20 year old kid, but also, um, I was also impressed with the fact that at least people were trying to do something.

And if you flash forward through the Afghan during and through and now after the Afghanistan campaign, the effort to actually want to engage with people and help them through those challenges as very likely will be lifelong challenges is the earnest effort is there. That's my, my only one point about that.

Does that make any sense at all?

Erin: Absolutely. And I'm glad you mentioned that, Simon, because I often talk about the recovery surrounding Swiss Air Flight 111 as the first time the Canadian Armed Forces in a major way in response to a traumatic event and [00:34:00] trauma exposure had a critical incident response. In place. Um, I was involved in operation persistence as well.

Simon, you know, here, uh, 423 squadron, uh, and the Navy and fishermen and the army all responded, um, following the crash. And in terms of our base. Shearwater was set up as the morgue for the remains and, and tragic aircraft reconstruction. So my base went from kind of being a sleepy half, half empty base into being the site of this horrific tragedy.

Families were descending, CNN was descending. Um, I was doing public affairs as a secondary duty. And I was struck by the fact that the first time I ever heard the word operational stress or critical [00:35:00] incident stress was then and some of our guys, some time to deal with processing the trauma and I saw how it impacted people in different ways and you couldn't say, mm.

That super tough guy, you know, was, was going to be untouched. It's indiscriminate on how trauma can impact you because you have your own personal experience, your own kind of DNA and your own sort of cup that may or may not be already filled from other traumas in life. And so what's interesting about that, Simon, I've talked about how That incident led me years later when we formed True Patriot Love.

My work with the foundation was all related to mental health. Because I saw that when the military did that... People responded [00:36:00] reluctantly at first, like you said, that that group of grizzled army guys. No one's going to be the first person to put their hand up and say, yeah, I couldn't sleep last night.

And I'm very anxious today. Um, but I'll tell you now, fast forward 25 plus years later, these conversations are a lot easier to have. And what is so amazing about it? Us connecting on this topic right now, Simon, Dr. Trevor Jane, a young military doctor, literally right out of med school, set up and kind of helped run the, the morgue at CFB Shearwater.

Um, he was one of our speakers. At the Sam Sharp Mental Health Breakfast, because I heard, I read his account in, in a book of stories by Canadian Armed Forces veterans, uh, a book kind of edited and brought together by Jody Middick. Um, can't remember the name right now. It might be called Canadian Heroes.[00:37:00] 

Um, I read Trevor's account and I said, Oh my gosh, I know this guy from Twitter. He was a doctor that didn't like. Justin Trudeau's tax changes, but then I, Oh my gosh, we have this Swiss air experience in common and he wrote about trauma exposure as a physician. I thought it was incredibly insightful and incredibly brave.

Trevor is a good friend to this day. Um, he checked in on me after my kind of public takedown, just as a friend doing a buddy check. Uh, I'll never forget that, but Trevor. Trevor, Trevor came and spoke on the Swiss air experience here on Parliament Hill. So I think the forces have come a long way. Employers have come a long way.

Society's come a long way. We've still got a ways to go in terms of making sure people can get back to work following trauma exposure and, and working while they have an operational stress [00:38:00] injury that they That they manage because work and identity in uniform is so much, uh, so important to that person's purpose that really it's about purpose and wellness while you're dealing with the under underlying injury, if you can keep that.

That purpose alive in, in this, in the soldier, sail, sailor, air, uh, airman, air woman's life that will help them in the recovery.

Simon: Absolutely. And it's interesting how you spoke about identity. Cause one of the things that my experiences had been that our identity can very easily be consumed by the leadership position we're in. And in something like the military, where the hierarchy is very clearly defined, the chain of command is very, very clearly defined.

And interestingly, the connection to what is perceived as success is tied to how high up we go up and down that rank system. It's interesting because that that's, that doesn't [00:39:00] necessarily mean that success. It's really what it comes down to. What the person feels is their own personal success, their journey of success, if we want to call it that.

And, and so I guess this is kind of leading me into my next question. Uh, and it, I don't know how to put this there after you lost. The, the leadership the next day at some point in time, there had to be that first day you had to go and start that next day as a member of parliament, and you had to see everyone again, there's just no way around that.

Like that's just, what's going to happen. That must've stung. I, and I'm not trying to make assumptions on your part at all. I guess the question I have is in the context of emerging leaders, they will have stumbles. They're going to have. A failure at some point in time, how would you recommend or how, what advice would you offer leaders as they have to get through those moments and what can they take away from that?

Erin: Thanks for the softball questions. Uh, I, I, I, in the days [00:40:00] after, um, I gave up the leadership following the vote of my caucus, uh, I was literally lost. And, you know, what you said about the military, uh, judging success by the rank you're in, there's a lot of that to politics too, and I had had success, and for a time, I really, we were winning the election, I thought I was going to be prime minister, I, I was still processing losing the election when there was a convoy in town, and, and, you know, the, the vote coming on me, I was quite frankly lost, and everything, I and my family had changed our lives to do over a decade, seemed to be called into question.

Um, essentially people in some cases that you had helped. Uh, and that you had dedicated your lives to, your own teammates had tossed you overboard. I kind of lost track of, [00:41:00] you know, why I was in politics, what I was doing, you know, regretting, uh, you know, all the sacrifices our family had made. So the lesson I'd like to pass on is don't cut yourself off.

I did for a little bit because we also had my wife. Had just undergone surgery. So we had a lot of stresses in the family that a lot of people didn't see. And so, you know, my, we had to move homes. We had to move kids schools. Um, and for a few days, I cut myself off and you know, what was amazing, Simon. Some of my military buddies showed up at the house, Stornoway.

They basically came over, uh, brought some, some, some drinks, uh, and we really just celebrated our friendship and one another and they were there to... They had my six, right? And at a time that they were really, I was really low and they kind [00:42:00] of reminded me of how, you know, we were so fortunate and they were so proud of the accomplishments we, you know, I'd had and that I'd relied on a lot of them.

They had knocked on doors for me. They had raised money. All of my friends from my military and my, my corporate career had supported this journey. And that's when I realized they're not just with me because I was the leader of the opposition and Almost prime minister, they were there because they were my friends and they cared about me and the family.

And so my advice to people going through a tough patch like that, don't, you know, don't cut yourself off and make sure that you're hearing from people that, that care about you. And then for me. I put myself into making sure the family could get through the moves and the changes that this change would have.

And then I set out on trying to accomplish a number of things that I thought were important for my riding and for the country. Uh, everything [00:43:00] from a small modular reactor and supporting the nuclear industry in my community, which I started doing 10 years ago when I was first elected right through to trying desperately to get the remaining Afghan interpreters and military contract partners in Afghanistan home because the Trudeau government completely botched.

The situation in Afghanistan, both before the fall of Kabul and and afterwards, and then a number of things, even getting the 10th annual Sam sharp mental health breakfast done, which was just earlier this month and handed over to MP Alex rough rough and Senator Rebecca Patterson, two new veterans to take the torch from from Romy and I.

So I then found to My purpose in doing a lot of the work as an MP, not as leader that I first did in politics and you know, then then things come to you. We're still I'll be honest. Um, [00:44:00] adjusting as a family to the transition because I feel a lot of guilt. Um, my family had literally my wife left her career.

My kids have moved school several times, all in pursuit of something I believed in. But was also a bit of ambition on my part. And so, um, I owe them a lot for this journey. And so it's part of the reason 10 years in politics is good. Uh, I'm very proud of what we were able to do. I haven't ever really sacrificed my values or my principles in this job, which I think is tough in politics these days.

And so all of these experiences, as we said early at this pivot point. In my journey will serve me well and what I do next.

Simon: Well, thank you so much for that. Uh, there's so much, but I, I will say I agree with you. And then sometimes when those big things happen, even the wins, the fails, whatever the term we want to use, I feel it's important to step back and take a breath. And, and [00:45:00] just kind of look at the umbrella and see, okay, what, what's happened right now and maybe why, and it's okay to, to, and I, it's okay to feel sad about something, if it's something that is not great has happened, it's okay to rejoice in a win.

That's all right. I think a lot of times people are expecting our leaders to kind of almost be robots, but at the same token, be human beings at the same time. And there's no in between. We're all humans. We all, as I like to say. We all poop. It doesn't matter. Every single one of us is doing that and we're all human beings.

And we're all going to go and do that. And, and that's okay. It is really okay to get through those moments, figure out the best way for ourselves to do it and then move forward. Time is going to move forward. No matter what, we're going to have to move forward with it. The

Erin: Yeah, no, exactly. And, and, and look, I think leadership means showing that, um, you can be vulnerable as well. And that you understand that other people are going through things that you may not even see. And so. [00:46:00] Adding to their pressure by being a tyrant or being, you know, you know, less than understanding as a leader is, is, is something that I really dislike.

And there's a lot of people in politics who I think treat their staff poorly and treat civil servants and other people poorly. Everyone's on their mission and their journey, even when performance has been. Um, below expectations to use the military term, um, you don't have to add to what led to that performance by being, being a jerk and, and laying it on too thick.

I think there's, there was certainly too much of that in the military back in the day. I think they're getting better. There's still a lot of that in, in politics, a lot of toxic kind of leadership, um, that I think will be the next step. kind of wave, just like the me to movement kind of drove out a lot of the not all of it, but some of the quietly accepted [00:47:00] sexism in some sectors of our society and harassment of women in the workplace.

I think you're going to see that. Toxic leadership being the next thing that is rooted out because nobody deserves to be mistreated. If people have have performance issues, a leader can address that through. Uh, through counseling, through extra training, through, you know, understanding, uh, what the issue is, particularly if it's someone that's been with your team for some time.

Um, you don't need to make problems worse by, by being tyrannical. The old joke in the military, military training was based on fear, sarcasm, and ridicule. Remember? Like, I always loved that joke. Unfortunately, some people in the military took that to, to heart, um, but that's not a sign of leadership. It's actually a sign of weak leadership if you're always flying off the handle and you're treating your team poorly.

Simon: Oh yeah. Yeah. My experience has been with the, those types of leaders that, uh, more often than not, [00:48:00] my, and my oppression is anyways, that they're afraid. They're deeply afraid of failure in every way that that word can mean. And, and they just take it out on their people to be like, I'm just going to yell louder and I'm going to be meaner and that's strength.

No. Not necessarily.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. So, uh, that's why I think it's good for you to talk about the leadership journey everyone's on because whether you're in the corporate world, whether you're in the military, whether you're in, um, you know, academia or other areas, um, positive leadership, strong and tough sometimes in terms of high expectation is fine, but tough in terms of treatment of people just for the sake of hierarchy is, is, is actually what we need to root out of, uh, leadership positions.

Simon: I completely agree. And, and this also feels like a great way to kind of roll out the end of this episode. And so I guess a quick question I have for you is if people want to reach out to you, if they want to connect [00:49:00] with you in any way, how might they do that?

Erin: Uh, that's a good question. I'm on all social media channels, or at least I appear to be, but to stay sane in the last four or five years, I really don't handle any of the, um, any of the social media channels myself, much to the chagrin of my team, who I'm constantly sending tweet this, send this out, but I don't have to do any of it.

Because the environment is just so toxic. Um, I'll be MP till summer, people can send me a note. Uh, I'm also on LinkedIn. While there still are some trolls on LinkedIn, um, It's pretty good. And that, that I do see. And so people send me notes. I do a lot of work, uh, uh, through LinkedIn with, with, with veterans.

And I'm a member of troubled Victor and, and I still do work with true patriot love. And I'm going to be doing something with them that I'll announce as I'm leaving politics. I think that's how you and I connected anything I can do to kind of help veterans in their own, [00:50:00] um, work on the cause, helping others or, um, You know, pushing for veteran employment programs at companies or, you know, pushing a message on recovery or wellness.

I try and do, I find, I kind of think that's my obligation as someone that got a lot of notoriety because of my political career for my military service, even though I was an average camper captain. I was nothing special in the military. I consider it a real gift that people know I served and I can connect people and opportunities and recommend things and support programs and support charities and initiatives.

I try my best to do that. So LinkedIn is probably the best way or just Google, uh, Erin O'Toole while I'm an MP and send, send a note. And when I transition, um, to a new role, uh, after politics, I won't be that hard to find either.

Simon: thank you so much for your time with all of this today. This has been a real pleasure. I know you're very, very busy and thanks. [00:51:00] So once again, thank you for taking the time today.

Erin: Well, good luck on your journey. And thanks for letting me talk about some of the lessons from mine.

Simon: Absolutely. I hope to have you back soon.

Erin: Thanks, Simon.

Simon: That's a wrap from the front. In this episode, we spoke to a member of parliament in Canada, Mr. Erin O'Toole. We talked about the need and the abilities to get through all of the challenges that we experience as leaders, understanding that our journey is going to take us on paths we couldn't possibly expect.

We talked about the need to stay calm, to understanding that we need to own our own journey, and to take a breath when we're experiencing those tough times, because I promise you, they will come. And lastly, we talked about finding your purpose, because how can we go on our journey if we don't know what the purpose is to take us along that path?

Thanks for tuning in, and remember, Leadership without passion limits the depth of your vision. [00:52:00]