E101 - Communicating is Leadership featuring Stacie Calder

I’d like to begin this episode by acknowledging the land that I am learning and living on is the traditional un-ceded, un-surrendered territory of the Anishinaabeg Algonquin People.

Leadership requires communication, because as famed author and leadership mentor Margaret J. Wheatley once said, “I believe we can change the world if we start listening to one another again.  Simple, honest, human conversation.”

The importance of communication is featured in almost every leadership style and principle because leaders have to be able to communicate everything, to everyone, all the time. The challenge for emerging leaders is that they are often unaware of how to adjust their communication style to hear and be heard - creating tension, paranoia, and confusion amongst the group.

Join us as Jason "the Donk" Donkersgoed hijacks this episode and plays host to Stacie Calder, MBA, and Executive Vice-President (North American Distribution & Marketing) for Conquest Planning Incorporated, where we will unlock the secrets of effective communication. We’ll also delve into Stacie's transformation from a small-town dreamer to a leader, where communication has been a cornerstone of her success.

Explore the transformative power of vulnerability in communication, especially when delivering honest feedback. Stacey reflects on personal experiences and cultural nuances, highlighting the importance of Brene Brown's mantra, "clear is kind." We delve into the challenges of self-communication, discussing how reshaping internal dialogues can empower leadership. Through personal anecdotes, we spotlight how empathetic feedback, and emotional intelligence can lead to more authentic and effective interactions.

In this episode we'll discuss the following topics:
• Exploring the evolution of communication in leadership  
• Importance of two-way understanding in authentic dialogue  
• The impact of self-talk on leadership effectiveness  
• Developing empathy for improved interpersonal relationships  
• The significance of asking questions to enhance communication  
• Fostering team dynamics for collective outcomes  
• Practical tools for emerging leaders to improve communication skills  
• Emphasizing the holistic approach to team communication

Chapters

• 0:07 Effective Communication in Leadership
• 8:28 The Power of Clear Communication
• 18:43 Overcoming Negative Self-Talk in Leadership
• 25:29 Mastering Communication and Building Trust
• 37:40 Effective Team Communication Strategies

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging that I am located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and I am privileged and honoured to live and learn on the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front produced by iGlenn Studios, a show for emerging leaders from all professions To hear from other leaders who have led from the front, made the mistakes, had the triumphs and are still learning along the way. And now here's your host, simon Cardinal.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front. You know it's a funny thing about leadership it requires communication Because, as famed author and leadership mentor, margaret J Wheatley once said, I believe we can change the world if we start listening to one another again Simple, honest, human conversations. But the importance of communication is featured in almost everything we do. Every leadership style and principle is based on what we do as leaders and how we're able to communicate or not to our teams and even, honestly, to ourselves. And this ability isn't about only relaying orders and directives. It's about being able to hear and understand the needs and desires of your team and the organization. Now, the challenge for emerging leaders is that they are often unaware of how to adjust their communication style to hear and to be heard, creating tension, paranoia and confusion amongst the group. Now, the good news is is that we can all learn how to be effective communicators, and so in this episode you'll hear from Stacey Calder.

Speaker 3: 1:59

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Simon, yeah, what are you doing? What are you doing here? Well, I thought I would hang out and I just so happen to know our guest very well. She's a good friend of mine.

Speaker 1: 2:14

Oh, dear listeners, we're in for a show. You've got Jason the Donk Donker's good with us here. He's a regular on the show. I can't believe we're actually having him here. What's going on?

Speaker 3: 2:22

Well, I think I should probably just hijack the show and maybe co-host it.

Speaker 1: 2:27

Wow. Well, I think that's a great idea. I've got some fresh coffee going on here. Let's make this happen.

Speaker 3: 2:34

All right. Well, welcome to Stacey Calder, who I have known for isn't this crazy Stacey? Over 17 years and I've seen her in action, and I'm not sure there is a better human being to talk about communication. I've seen her in action in the boardroom, with presidents, with senior leaders, with rooms full of people that she's speaking to with individuals, of people that she's speaking to with individuals, and in every single case, stacey is the hallmark of great communication. So, stacey, welcome to Trench Leadership.

Speaker 4: 3:15

Thank you. Thank you, jay. Just for all the listeners to be very clear, we were 12 when we we met Just a couple of years ago and I was 12 at that point. We don't want to date ourselves here. No, thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for the invite and your very gracious introduction, yeah, so Stacey.

Speaker 3: 3:38

I think the best place to start is for you to tell us a little bit about your journey to this point in a minute or two.

Speaker 4: 3:45

Sure, I mean, how do you reduce your life into a minute or two? It's pretty simple. You know, grew up in a small town, had big dreams to go to the big city, went to school initially for health and fitness and wanted to get into sports medicine. But took a business course and fell in love with it, switched gears into accounting, which led me into a career in financial services, starting out with RBC Dominion Securities as an investment advisor and then 15 years in the retail and small business banking space in Canada. So since that time I've left big corporate and moved into fintech and it's been an incredible move for me.

Speaker 4: 4:24

I tell people that it's like a breath of fresh air. I didn't realize I needed to gulp in. But among that entire career, you know, you know, personally one of my top values is communication. So really excited to just talk about communication, and that's the professional side of it, the personal side of it. You know, communication kind of impacts all levels of our lives in a variety of different ways. So really excited to dig in on this topic with you here today.

Speaker 3: 4:51

Yeah, and I think that's a perfect segue. The reality is, communication would probably be one of the most overused words in leadership development, so why don't we just start there? What is your definition or what are some of the pieces that you think about when you think about communication?

Speaker 4: 5:10

What a good question and you know, if I'm honest with you, I would say it probably evolved over the years. When I was a young, hungry salesperson, you know, working with financial advisors, helping them with their banking and setting up banking solutions for their client base, I would have said communication is doing a really good job explaining my product and making sure they really understood that product and that it was going to, you know, do a great job and improve the life and the financial health and well-being of the people we were jointly serving, of the people we were jointly serving. As I moved into a leadership role in my 30s, early 30s, I would say I had many learning experiences that have evolved my opinion around communication and really from a lot of feelings. To be honest with you, I have many stories, which maybe some will come out during our conversation today, that you know help me kind of have a lot more perspective around communication and, I think, my belief in communication.

Speaker 4: 6:10

And actually it was interesting, I had a conversation last night with my fiance talking about communication and how that's my number one value and we have these great conversations but it's evolved to the point where I think it's two-way understanding is my definition of it now. So communication involves so much more about actually hearing what the other person is trying to convey through more than just their words. It's their body language, it's their nuances, it's the. The experience that each of us have in life is so vastly different in terms of our background. I think great communication is just coming together and getting on the same page and being able to align towards a common purpose or agree to disagree. That's okay too.

Speaker 3: 7:00

I love that. That crisp few words, two-way understanding is so beautiful and hits so many points of emotional intelligence. Actually, when you take a step back, Because it's really easy to communicate outward without any thought of the audience or how the other person is receiving things or the other person's lived experiences, and what you just said is no, no, no, no, or the other person's lived experiences and what?

Speaker 4: 7:29

you just said is no, no, no, no, it's much more complex than that. Absolutely, yeah, it absolutely is. Those two-way experiences, I think as you get older well, for myself anyways you learn to appreciate the background and experiences that people bring to the table and find that you know, my arrogant younger self when I took my MBA would have you know I was almost beside myself that I had to do these group projects. I mean group projects. I couldn't control the outcome right. But as you get forced into these situations and improve that emotional intelligence, like you talked about, you realize that that collective or I realized in that situation that the collective contribution to these projects was so much greater than the individual contribution and that really comes from valuing, through communication, what other people bring to the table.

Speaker 3: 8:18

Yeah, from the day I met you and we met when we were both in business development it was clear that you were a phenomenal communicator. What I'm interested and a little bit curious about is at what point in your life did you recognize the power of communication, like what happened there?

Speaker 4: 8:40

Oh gosh, I don't know. I think my parents probably just got annoyed at how much I talk. Um, you know a young age, but I mean, even like being a uh in a small town, I was able to participate in a lot of sport and I had these great mentors in high school and was able to captain a few teams and, in those roles, being able to gather those people together for a common purpose, like I would say, probably understood the impact of communication from a very young age. I was raised in a home where I was taught, you know, public speaking, I was taught to set goals, I was taught leadership you know from, from my family and the community around me, and, and so I think it lent itself to that communication desire, the want to gather people together and to understand and to have that human connection. But no, no, no, I could say I had like a exact pivot point or an aha moment. I had lots of aha moments in like pieces of communication.

Speaker 4: 9:44

One time I was working with a friend and we got promoted at the same time and she was so gracious to give me such honest, direct feedback. That said, she basically said to me you need to improve your vulnerability, like you come off as robotic in front. So you speak great, you're in front, you're doing your leadership thing. You're giving direction to in front. So you speak great, you're in front, you're doing your leadership thing, you're, you know, giving direction to our team, but you don't have that empathy or that vulnerability so people can't connect with you because you seem robotic. And it was such a gracious thing that she did for me and a generous thing that she did for me and a brave thing that she did for me because she helped me see myself through a different lens that, quite frankly, I wouldn't have seen without her honesty and the trust that we had established that she could really just bluntly give me that feedback and those little experiences we have in life, I think really lend to improving ourselves over time.

Speaker 3: 10:40

Yeah, what a beautiful thing. I'm gonna just take us on a little tangent here, based on what you said. I think one of my favorite quotes from Brené Brown is clear as kind, and I think that plays a massive role within communication and within your example that you just shared. So maybe talk a little bit about how that's evolved for you your ability to actually express what needs to be expressed.

Speaker 4: 11:09

Yes, I am so passionate about this piece. In fact, I always say to people we are too Canadian, we're too Canadian. I love Brene Brown. First of all. Love Brene Brown. Brene, if you hear that, please, we would love to chat with you and visit more with you. I've read all your books. I'm a big fan.

Speaker 4: 11:27

But that clarity is kindness, is really important because sometimes I think of Canadian culturally, we're just, we're very kind and we don't want to hurt people's feelings and we're very sensitive to the world around us in a good way, like I think we have this great reputation of being, you know sorry, you know and apologize for these, you know situations. But finding that ability I think one thing that has been really interesting and I would say even delightful for me, is to be able to communicate to someone with love and with generosity and deliver a difficult message because it's because it's for the greater good and sometimes for the best of the individual or the best of the organization or the best of the family, whatever circumstance it has been. But finding a way to deliver it that is clear, that the boundaries are there but it's not attacking. You know, we don't need to give feedback in a way that is aggressive or attacking or belittling to the person. And one way that I improved that skill set was through a situational leadership course that I took during my time at Manulife and we talked a lot about in that course about using behavior, situation, behavior and impact as a framework for framing up discussions. And communication is something that all of us can improve on and get better at, and there's courses, there's books, but this is one that stands out in my mind as impactful in my career and in my home life to be able to talk about the situation, the behavior, the impact. That gives very clear direction and it's very clear on what the situation is and what the outcome was, so that you're talking about the situation rather than attacking the person. So that clarity is kindness.

Speaker 4: 13:29

Brene Brown, I could not agree more. I think on the, on the flip side of it, unclear and messy or muddled direction, people misinterpret it Right. So if you tell me, hey, stacey, like good job on your report that you put together, but you know there could be some improvement in the middle, and then you know there's no clarity around it or no direction, I don't know how to improve, like I don't know where I missed the mark or you know what it is. So I think, as leaders, we have an obligation to be clear and kind in the feedback, even when it's really difficult.

Speaker 3: 14:09

Yeah, way too much goodness in all of the stuff that you just said. So I want to unpack a little bit of it and I want our audience to notice some of the language, love and generosity. And sometimes you know, as leaders, we're afraid to use words like that and I love that you use words like that. You use the word vulnerability, you know that just makes sense and it's so crazy because I had the exact conversation about being too Canadian today with somebody when it came to conflict and boundaries and and giving clear and kind feedback. So you know, absolutely spot on Stacey, like that's exactly what leaders need to be thinking about.

Speaker 4: 15:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:01

I think a lot of times the challenge when we're talking about those leaders that are in those positions is understanding how we're able to hear each other and even hear ourselves. I know when I was in those first roles as a new master corporal, I had this and that's the. For the listeners, that's the first formal leadership position in the Canadian military. I was in charge of a couple of guys that were significantly senior to me in age, position, experience, all the different things, and they were trying and they just told me what was going to happen and that was fine. But then there was also times when I needed to tell them what was going to happen. I found that very, very difficult and I wasn't being honest with myself when I was saying I was struggling to talk to myself and say, okay, I can do this, I have the right to be here, I have the right to be here, I have the. I've earned this position or for all these different things, because we're too Canadian to ourselves sometimes and that downplaying can be quite a challenge.

Speaker 3: 15:53

So you said the word ourselves a couple of times and and I love frameworks and I use the EQI 2.0 emotional intelligence framework on a regular basis and there's a portion around emotional intelligence that's self-perception and self-regard. And, stacey, you and I have had many conversations about this topic, but I think communication always begins with self-talk and I know you have a lot to say about that. So why don't you just share your thoughts on how we communicate with ourselves as a starting point?

Speaker 4: 16:33

Yeah, okay, I would love to. So here's the thing. I think our self-talk is a function of a variety of things and I actually think it starts young in our lives, with the world around us, how we perceive the world around us and what we're told and, um, I, I. I am fortunate in that I was raised in a home where my parents basically taught me I could do anything, I could fly, I could be anything, do anything, have anything and and I, for some crazy reason, believe them and, and you know, have done a lot of things. But but that piece, when you're talking, simon, there, that you're just kind of told or you come in and you're a junior in a role or perceived as junior, I, I have a couple really good personal stories.

Speaker 4: 17:19

When I started in business development, when Jay, you and I were in the same role together back in 2005, I went to my first appointment and I drove. I lived in Kelowna. Jay, you and I were in the same role together. Back in 2005, I went to my first appointment and I drove. I lived in Kelowna at the time and I drove down to a Soyuz. If you know the Okanagan Valley, you'll know how beautiful it is. It was summertime, the end of summer, I started September 5th and I drove down to a Soyuz to meet this couple to talk about their mortgage. And I knocked on the door and I remember them giving me kind of a funny look and they just looked at me and I said, hi, I'm here to talk to you about your mortgage. Remember we had this appointment and then they kind of had this aha, look, they opened the door and I came in. They fed me lovely tea and cookies and we helped them out with their mortgage.

Speaker 4: 17:59

When I was leaving that appointment, they said to me with smiling faces when you first showed up at our door, we thought you, because I had a pink blouse on and a white skirt and I looked young for my age and I was 23 at the time. So, uh, you know, I I wasn't girl guide age, but I, I was offended by this, like I was, you know, embarrassed and offended, and this was my ego, right in my self-talk, because in my head I was like I'm gonna dominate the world and be the best mortgage person and do all these things, but here I was, like you, just like sat on myself the same, because you basically called me a child and fast forward to when I moved into my first leadership role. It was a competitive position. There were a lot of people applying for this role and I remember the first employee engagement survey that came out that year and I was sitting around the leadership table and they read out the commentary and the employee engagement survey and one of them was a negative feedback on the survey that this employee was actually disengaged and it called out specifically that only you know young blonde females get promoted in this organization as a, you know, direct sort of I think I internalize that because the entire room kind of turned and looked at me as the newest member at that table. And so, simon, when you were talking about it, I have been in that position where you know people senior to me reporting to me, and so my early leadership days I had this ego on a mission to do really well and and my EQ wasn't as developed, like my technical skills were good, but I had to be.

Speaker 4: 19:40

I'm put on a lot of humility to take that feedback and constantly ask that feedback. So when you think about your internal self-talk, I think an ability to lower our defenses from traumas of our past and block out maybe messaging that has been deeper ingrained in our psyche. That's not serving us anymore and those things tend to be repetitive in our head. And so those are two experiences. That was negative feedback that I internalized and I then overcompensated it for it with maybe not positive leadership behaviors, you know, by overperforming or working too hard. But then I was unintentionally setting expectations for my team that they should be on the clock all the time, which is, you know, not a good leadership behavior either. So that's a long winded answer with a couple of stories. It's a long-winded answer with a couple of stories, but I think, like in terms of how our, our internal dialogue is formed, being able to look in the mirror and challenge those, those that monologue when it comes up and replace it with things that serve you, um, is a very worthwhile and gratifying exercise.

Speaker 1: 20:57

Oh, and the ability to to actually harness that is so powerful, so powerful. Uh, thank you so much for those stories. Uh, jason, would it be okay if I offered a quick one? Yeah, please, awesome, so, very, very similar. So actually, jason, you were a part of this, to be to be completely honest. So here we go. So long-time listeners have heard this story many times. It's actually an episode zero, zero, uh, it's an imposter syndrome type of thing.

Speaker 1: 21:13

When I first, uh had applied for the master of arts and leadership program at royal roads uh, I was doing it to force, specifically to help my career I had the very practical reasons. I was going to get those post nominals, put them at the end of my name and get myself promoted. Bam win, great, right on. So the first eight weeks of the program are online. I'm doing my thing, everything's going great and nothing had changed for me. I still had that mindset, but about weeks six ish, the reality that we were gonna have to do the in-person portion of year one was starting to kick in and I was starting to realize to myself and it's telling a story, a great, a really good, powerful story about how I didn't deserve to be there for a whole bunch of different reasons. I, I was in there.

Speaker 1: 21:52

I was the only person in the Corps who was in the military, going to British Columbia, traditionally not a super military friendly region uh, for a bunch of different reasons. I'm not, don't get me wrong, british Columbia is very military friendly, but you know what I mean. Um, I had I don't, I at that point I still like, I had high school but I had, uh, completed a bunch of military courses, but in my head they weren't really accounting for anything and there was no way they were going to translate over to the civilian aspect of the world. I did not have an undergraduate degree, so how could I possibly be? And I was a warrant officer at the time. So how could I possibly be entrenched with all of these people who were very, very successful in their industries? And it was just, is everyone, all these successful people and Simon off to the side? I had no right to be there.

Speaker 1: 22:36

And I did a really good job of telling myself really it could be argued a really good job of listening to myself about how I didn't deserve to be there. And I told that story to myself so often and so powerfully that, leading up to there. I actually beat my own immune system up that I actually gave myself a common cold because I was so convinced I had no right to be there. I just freaked and stressed out. And then so we get there, we're doing our thing and, uh, kathy Bishop gets up.

Speaker 1: 22:59

The director of the program says you all earned the right to be here for a bunch of different reasons. Like okay, yeah, that's right. And then, weirdly enough, even though Jason and I were in the same groups, you and I just started talking and, just out of the blue, we just started chit-chatting. And that was a very large switch, switch-changing moment for me, cause I'm like, hey, I can talk to these people, I can have intelligent conversations and I have every right to be here just as much as anyone else. And and we're all, we're all, just people are people, are people. And that that immediately, instantly, changed how I perceived everything that was going on in the world around me. And and anyways, you know, flash forward a couple of years and three years, and here we are, you know, recording this podcast episode. It's amazing how we can tell ourselves these stories. Imagine if we use that power when we were leaders to talk to them and communicate with them. Sorry a bit long winded, but what do you do?

Speaker 3: 23:48

Yeah, so much here. We could do probably five episodes on on on self-talk and communication. Uh, to self. Um, the one of the books that I've read and I'll I'll make sure that we put the full title and the author in is how emotions are made, and, uh, I believe it's lisa barrett feldman, but we'll make sure we have the right one. And, uh, one of the things that she talks about is that, you know, we're prediction machine, so our lived experiences then turn into predictions of what will happen next. And you know, one of the things I've always admired about you, stacey, is you seem to be able to calm the predictions that are not serving you and move towards predictions that are serving you and communicate with yourself in that way. Can you maybe just talk a little bit about you know, if you have any tips or tricks on how to do that?

Speaker 2: 24:49

Oh, hello there. It's Glenn, the voiceover artist, and if you're hearing me, that means we're at the midpoint of this episode. Do you have an idea for an episode that you feel is vital for emerging leaders? Leave the idea in the comments section and, if your topic is chosen, you will have the opportunity to join us as a co-host during the recording session. So drop us a note and let's talk. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you, and if you feel we've earned it, please tell your friends and leave a review to help us grow our following. And now back to the show.

Speaker 4: 25:29

Yes, I have like seven tips and tricks on how to do this. Actually, I and I've repeated them over and over and, depending what state I'm in, I'll move in one of these tips and tricks to shove out the bad, whatever I don't want to do. So I'm big into. So I believe in like living this full, well-rounded life. So from health and fitness, to relationships, to mental health, to social well-being, financial well-being. And one thing I do repetitively is like my fitness. I have mantras when I'm working out. So I love to kickbox. Right now, I can spin for a while, get barbed for a while. I rotate through sports.

Speaker 4: 26:11

I've always been into sports. It's my healthy outlet for stresses in life and I don't always love the first part of a workout. It's hard to get into it and rather than telling myself and you listen, if you listen to what goes through your head if you work out, you will tell yourself you can do it or you can't do it, and I would argue 90% of people we automatically go to I can't do this, I'm so tired, I can't do this, I just can't do this. You have no choice but your body failing you at that point, because if you don't have a strong mind, you don't have a strong body, you cannot do the work. Your mind is actually what determines your results, fitness wise, and I just and so, if you can shift the minute you hear that I can't do this, I replace it with mantras like fitter, faster, stronger, or get fit, have fun. And I say it in my head over and over to the cadence of whatever I'm doing. So if the beat is going one, two, one, two, while I'm hitting the bag and I think I just can't hit one more time, I know that's what I'm thinking, but I'm mentally in my mind saying get fit, have fun, get fit, have fun. So it may sound silly, but I do this quite regularly, especially as it relates to sport and fitness From a general well-being standpoint.

Speaker 4: 27:20

You may feel it's a bit silly for me to share this with the world, but I will tell you, because this is legitimately what I do. I live in this beautiful home with a big window that overlooks a valley, and I stand there in the morning and I open my arm and I welcome abundance into my life and I just say I welcome abundance, abundance of health, abundance of wealth, abundance of happiness and abundance of love. And then I just stand for a minute and like, think what that feels like. I try and feel the feeling, ultimately, of love, because I think, at the end of the day, love is the antidote to everything. So, simon, when you were telling your story about how you were undeserving and that imposter syndrome, I think every human can relate to that because we've all been there. You can replace it with self-love and feel that feeling of love towards self. You're better.

Speaker 4: 28:06

Nutrition is my other third tip and trick. I use nutrition and supplements, depending on you know what stage of the year it is or you know if I'm having challenges with whatever. I am very into making well-balanced and healthy meals that feed my body and my soul. I love food. I love to bake. The other piece of that is sleep. So making sure that I prioritize sleep and then recovery, so I do things like meditation or I have a sauna that I go in. Then I always make sure I carve out a piece of my life for social time. That's very important to me. You know I'm a people gatherer. Sometimes I overdo, it goes into overdrive and I need to kind of pull it back. And then quality time with those that are closest to me, so my family, my children, my fiance.

Speaker 3: 29:02

Yes, so amazing to hear what I would kind of categorize most of what you said under is priming yourself for success, and that's likely why you can be such a great communicator on a regular basis. That's all looking at the internal dialogue. Let's shift a little bit and let's look at interpersonal relationships and how you build trust, maintain trust and sometimes rebuild trust when it's broken with communication.

Speaker 4: 29:40

Build, maintain and rebuild. So I had a boss one time that I felt a lot of friction with and I tried to communicate in different styles. I was a young leader at the time and I just felt that I wasn't liked very much and that my ideas were dismissed all the time. And I just felt that I wasn't liked very much and that my ideas were dismissed all the time, and I had always put together what I thought was well-researched and recommended proposals and solutions. And so finally one day I went to HR to ask for feedback on myself and say, like, tell me what I'm doing wrong or what I could do differently.

Speaker 4: 30:08

And this leader her name was Carol at the time. She was amazing. She's now retired but she said to me so one small thing that made a massive impact. And she said, stacy, instead of saying should all the time try replacing that one word with the word could. And I was like huh, because I gave her a bunch of emails and said can you read these? Like, how are they coming across?

Speaker 4: 30:30

I'm pretty aggressive and assertive and so sometimes that can come off as pushy or bullish. It's not my intention. I just I'm very clear, but I'm also very blunt. So if you don't know my personality, and we were newly working together.

Speaker 4: 30:41

So, in terms of like, building that trust, I think I broke the trust right away because I came off as like I was telling this person how to do their job over and over and over again. And when I flipped it and looked at it I was like, of course I'm getting friction, like I would be too if I felt but but, and so I did that I changed the should to could and I started asking more questions rather than telling. And so, in terms of building trust, rebuilding trust, breaking trust, we have to be willing to, as leaders, as parents, as friends, as partners, as spouses, be willing to pivot how we communicate, to be empathetic to what other people need, especially in a leadership role, and if we want our relationships to be successful, we have to be willing to give and take and actually introduce that empathy. So I think trust is built on a good foundation of communication, like effective communication.

Speaker 3: 31:38

Yeah, there's so much gold in what you're talking about again. So, first off, the thing that I'm noticing and have appreciated about you for all these years is humility with which you travel through this world, and humility is the only thing that can give us the self-awareness that, hey, something is in my control, I can shift something in order to communicate better with the other person. What a fantastic example. You know where, in that particular scenario, those shoulds were leading to. Maybe this other person feeling like, hey, I don't want to be told what to do, and one simple little change through humility and self-awareness, changes the trajectory of the communication right. The other thing that you said is deploy questions, and certainly for me, as somebody that is now also in the coaching profession, questions are near and dear to my heart and I didn't always use them, and it changed everything for me when I started using questions. So maybe talk a little bit about how smart, humble and, I guess, empathetic questioning has played a role in your communication.

Speaker 4: 33:07

I mean I feel like you should be answering this question. You are a master at questions. One of the things I've appreciated about working with you over the years is your ability to curate questions that are so thoughtful and meaningful and kind of cut to the core of what issues are and help people self-realize. Because that's the best learning we can have. If somebody can learn it for ourselves and we uncover it, I think that's great. But in terms of like careful, curated questions, I think that's humility. That you're, you know, graciously giving me credit for now that was work in progress over like my lifetime. You've known me the last 17 years but if you knew me the first 17 years, you know, I think, of people that maybe I went to high school with like they would have called me more aggressive and like demanding and as a young professional, I think it probably got labeled with some of those terms, not intentional, but just because I wasn't self-aware of how I came across. So what's it like to be on the other side of me? So the counterbalance to the communication strength I have top three values.

Speaker 4: 34:06

Communication is one, inclusion is number two, but it's the third one, that accountability piece, that, I think, keeps me humble. I cannot stand being around people that point fingers at everybody else around them. I reject that energy of lacking accountability for what is within our control. That may sound mean, but over the years, when you're you know, people gather and I love people and bring them together, I think being able to set those boundaries and have that accountability of self first and foremost, before holding others accountable. So apply it to a leadership position. If I'm showing up every day and I'm doing my job and I'm, you know, setting expectations and I'm fulfilling them, I'm accountable for my area of accountability. I am in a much better position, from a trust basis, to ask my team to do the same, or to ask my superiors for money for a project I want to run or, you know, buy in to prioritize an implementation that I think will benefit the business, for whatever reason. So that pairing of communication and accountability, I think humility is sort of tied to that. You can't be accountable for things without humility.

Speaker 4: 35:21

I think it's the lack of humility and the ego and our pride that takes over, and usually that's rooted in insecurities. So for me, in leadership roles, I've actually I'm not an empathetic person by nature, but I built this, learned empathy because I've come to realize that when people are displaying behaviors of resistance or aggression or disengagement, it's quite often the result of an insecurity that they're trying to compensate for Nobody. I do not believe that anybody shows up in this life to complain or to place blame or to you know point, at the world around them. So, whereas I would have previously rejected these people completely because they would just drive me nuts, that they would be like oh it's my mom's fault, my dad's fault, this fault, this fault, this fault, this fault.

Speaker 4: 36:11

I ask more questions. Now they're like help, help me understand more, tell me more about that. What does that feel like to you? And take time to actually really be in their shoes and understand where that's coming from. It's been really helpful with my middle child, who is a very busy boy, getting down on his level and asking questions rather than dictating to him. He hates being told what to do, right. So asking those meaningful questions and then giving him the ability to be accountable, we're working on the humility piece. Hopefully one day, as he progresses past his age eight right now, that will continue to deepen for him.

Speaker 3: 36:51

Yeah, you know. I just want to point out one of the things that you said was you're not naturally an empathetic person and you spent time nurturing that and building that and you called it learned empathy. I think that's just such a vital thing to think about. There are a lot of skills in this world that we can build. Just because you know our default might be at one place doesn't mean that we can't build it into a strength over time, and you've clearly built it into a strength.

Speaker 4: 37:26

Yeah, thank you, it's a work in progress.

Speaker 3: 37:33

So we've talked mostly about first communication with self and then communication with individuals. I'd like to turn the page a little bit and talk about communication with teams. Yeah, so why don't you just like jump in and talk a little bit about what you see as important when it comes to communicating with an entire team?

Speaker 4: 37:58

Because I am so community orientated and I truly love people, I love gathering people. I think team communication is not one way. It's like a spaghetti plate. It's like you have, let's say, you've got your 14, you might have a captain, you have coach, co-captain, same the like, designated meters that people look to to call the plays, to set the plays, but without effective communication of everybody on that team, you're not going to win the game.

Speaker 4: 38:29

And it's the same in business when we are gathering teams together I've, you know, set up teams or built teams or restructured teams it is Bringing forward the best of everybody to deliver a collective outcome that is going to benefit not only the individual members of the team but the contribution to what they're trying to achieve, whether it's winning a sports game or, you know, creating success in a team environment at work, um, at work. So I think communication, um in a team is needs to be fostered, so it's not a leader sitting at the top and just want well or what. We've had all those people. I've been one of those people. So, just to be clear, you know, I was the one at one point, um, but uh, the most effective teams I participated on is where every team member felt valued, felt heard and they felt like they belonged. They didn't have to try and fit in, but they really felt like they actually belonged and had a meaningful position to play.

Speaker 3: 39:37

Yeah, there's again. There's so much in this. So one of the words you use is community. And you know, building and communicating to a community feels very different to me than communicating in other ways, because again back to accountability I have a higher sense of accountability to a community than to just a team. I really appreciate the talk about it's a spaghetti plate. It's kind of messy, there's lots of moving parts and if we oversimplify it we're going to miss pieces of it. So your word was it has to be fostered, that it has to be nurtured. And then another thing that you said was collective outcome. I think that's so important when we're talking to teams is that we're the ones that help set the vision. And it might be a collective vision, but that collective outcome everybody has to be able to picture it, and it takes communication to create that. And then you ended off perfectly. You know, if we can help people feel valued, heard and that they belong, we're on the right track when it comes to communication.

Speaker 4: 40:59

I believe that to be true.

Speaker 3: 41:01

Yeah, love it. So let's a little bit and let's get really practical. So what advice do you have for emerging leaders, or what practical tools do you rely on on a regular basis that you would love the audience to know about?

Speaker 4: 41:20

Short term, quick hint, okay. So I have read dozens and dozens of books on communication. First of all, I would say educate yourself so everybody can become better communicators. Even if you think you're a master. You, the more you become a master, the more you'll learn. You're actually a student. So, uh, reading, uh, anything I can on communication has been a passion of mine. I've read so much. I moved on to podcasts, started listening audiobook, audiobooks but from a practical, like day-to-day lens, I think the best way we can improve our communication is learning to ask great questions, not just of the world around us but of ourselves. The most powerful question I would say that has impacted my career, my personal life, is what is it like to be on the other side of Stacy?

Speaker 1: 42:12

Oh, Stacy, why do?

Speaker 3: 42:13

you do that to us, wow, awesome.

Speaker 1: 42:14

I don't even know what to say. I'm going to let Jason keep going.

Speaker 3: 42:22

Like that. That one pretty much took my breath away there for a second. And it's not one I've asked myself recently and I'm not going to've asked myself recently and I'm not going to ask what's on the? What's it like being on the other side of stacy? Because I know, uh, it wasn't like being on the other side of jason. What a phenomenal, phenomenal question. I just I marvel at, yeah, how much you live your life with accountability, stacey, how, like the old thing, when you've got your finger pointing out, there's three fingers pointing back at you and over and over and over again, while we've been having a conversation, you've pointed it back at yourself with lots of accountability and haven't really made it about the other person at all. When it comes to accountability on their side, you're like, no, I'm accountable for the communication.

Speaker 4: 43:14

Yeah, because we are. What's interesting about life is, I think life is a reflection of our thoughts and behaviors and feelings. And so when we are experiencing our life day to day and if we're going through miserable times and I think about my worst time, my thought patterns have not been serving me or I've been being victim to a circumstance that I thought was out of my control, rather than finding a piece in it that I could control and focusing on that and just doing one small thing, whatever it is if it was just sitting there and breathing for five minutes that served me, and to shut out noise I think it is something that we can all do. It doesn't mean it's easy and we all go through hard things and sometimes excruciating things, that you know we need to grieve, that we need to feel all those emotions, but living our best lives, I really do believe. Like I said, I think life is a reflection of our feelings, thoughts and behaviors, and it's not what the world does to us, it's what we bring to the world.

Speaker 3: 44:13

Yeah, amazing. I want to go to one last place that's tied to emotional intelligence. One of the subcategories of emotional intelligence is impulse control, and I'm going to take a wild guess that each of us at some point has had a lack of impulse control when it comes to communication, and I just wonder if you could share, you know, either a failure or your thoughts about the role of impulse control within communication.

Speaker 4: 44:47

Oh, there's so many. Oh, I could give you personal examples, professional examples, like probably my biggest trigger and the one that gets to me the quickest, is interactions with my children when I feel they're misbehaving or out of line, or you know like ask them to do something 25,000 times and then I just go ballistic. That is an impulse again, where I'm just repeating the same one Brush your teeth, brush your teeth, brush your teeth. So this is the definition of insanity Saying the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. Instead of taking the time to walk into the bathroom with them, sit down, get them started and then brush their teeth like two extra seconds. Yes, they need to learn how to brush their teeth and do that on their own, with a quick reminder at some point. But um, oh jason, how embarrassing can I get. I'm trying to think of a good example.

Speaker 4: 45:36

I had so many where I've been like I actually said that one of my leaders at one point pulled me into the office for professional coaching and I thought that I was being pulled in for um, accolades like to be you good job. You did this and instead I got coaching that I should not go throughout the organization to solicit support and my instant reaction to this was what I thought was trying to be empty and I said it's like you're kind of the proverbial clown in between, you're trying to balance both sides, that I sent this to my boss's boss at the time, so that did not go over very well and but it wasn't meant to be. I was like trying to empathize, but from a lack of control and actually formulating my communication appropriately, I had to really apologize and work to recover that. That was not what I meant. That's not how, but it it was a lack of um taking time to formulate the word coming out.

Speaker 4: 46:29

I don't know if you saw there was a TED talks recently and the guy comes on it's all about communication and he starts to light a cigarette on the stage I've got to get his name starts to light a cigarette on stage and then he goes on to tell everybody how basically it's all debunked and that the smoking a cigarette is not determined, it's not going to give you lung cancer. Basically your DNA is and he's very convincing and by the end of it he's basically talking about the power of communication and how our words have power to convince one way or the other. And I thought it was a really good, so I'll find that maybe you can link it in this one as another communication resource for the listeners.

Speaker 3: 47:06

Yeah, I that that last little bit that you were just talking about. I think the word that was flashing through my head as you were telling the story of what he was talking about is our words do have power, and that comes with great responsibility. Responsibility, and for me, that's why, you know, one of my core values is kindness, Because I know in my heart of hearts, if I lead with kindness, then I'm always going to be responsible to make sure that the other person is in good hands with within communication. I don't always do a great job of it, but I sure as heck try. Simon, you look like you want to add something.

Speaker 1: 47:45

Yeah, you know. So you're absolutely right. You do it with kindness and understand that you don't know where you're coming from. I know for myself my biggest experiences come from the reminder and that I, as a leader, we are being judged, and everything we say, everything we're not saying, everything we're doing, everything we're not doing, every single thing is part of that communication, and one of my mantras as a senior leader is to remind my junior leaders and myself everything I'm saying is being judged, every single thing. Even if people don't know, they're judging me, I'm being judged and and they're following me in in how I'm saying and what I'm doing and the vice of that.

Speaker 1: 48:22

And a great example of that would be I'm a sarcastic person. It's just in my nature. My mother gave that to me through genetics. It's just the way it is and I have learned that a lot of times.

Speaker 1: 48:31

The stuff that's funny in my mind probably should never leave my mind and sometimes, sometimes every once in a while, it still gets out there, and then, once I start acting in a very sarcastic tone, then everyone seems to think that that's okay, and especially in the role that I'm at right now with the military as a squadron warrant officer 412th squadron here in Ottawa, my role is to advise the commanding officer, to be that person's advisor for all things Canadian forces related, and so if I'm walking around and I've got my hands in my pockets or I'm being super sarcastic, then everyone else inside that squadron seems to think that that's okay to do that, and sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, but I have to set an example of knowing when to do those things and when not to do those things. So really it's my long-winded way of saying, as the leaders everything you're saying and doing is being taken into consideration. Everything you're not saying and not doing is being taken into consideration all the time, every time. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 49:28

We have to lead the way right, Like that's just the reality, Stacey. Any final thoughts about communication before we go to the lightning round.

Speaker 4: 49:39

Do it, Do it, that be it. It will improve your life. Honestly, it is my number one value for a reason. It just when I started focusing on better communication and putting effort into wanting to become a better communicator, a better listener, a better leader. It's transformed my life and I'm much calmer than I used to be. I'm grounded in who I am and I just really would encourage everybody to take time to think about what we say and to think how we show up in the world.

Speaker 3: 50:13

Perfect Communication changes the world.

Speaker 4: 50:17

It does.

Speaker 3: 50:18

Yeah, so thank you for your time. Really enjoyed this conversation.

Speaker 4: 50:23

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 50:25

Thanks so much for this Stacey. This has been so fantastic. If people want to reach out to you, they want to connect in various ways. How might they do that?

Speaker 4: 50:31

LinkedIn is the best place to reach me.

Speaker 1: 50:34

Okay for sure, and of course we'll have links to Stacey for her LinkedIn account inside the show notes. So I'm confident people are going to reach out and talk more about communication. But that's enough for me, Jason.

Speaker 3: 50:48

It's your show, hey what are? We supposed to do.

Speaker 1: 50:55

Jennifer, jennifer, jennifer. So so I think I think that's pretty much it, stacey. Thanks. So much, jason. I will need to keep you around for just a second to do the outro. I've written something up, I'll put it in the chat here. You can make some adjustments and we'll go from there.

Speaker 4: 51:11

Thanks so much, stacey. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much. Oh, I miss. Oh, no, it's so nice, I miss you, jay. This was so fun we.

Speaker 3: 51:18

My heart sings Stacey like, but we we have to do more often we have to get together as a group again, like it. Just it's almost going to make me cry. So get up to this thing so you don't cry.

Speaker 4: 51:29

Mwah. Okay, thank you. Talk to you guys later. Bye.

Speaker 1: 51:35

Awesome. I got to work better at the button. There we go.

Speaker 3: 51:40

Well, that's a wrap from the front. In this episode I hijacked the episode where Stacey helped us see that communication is directly tied to authentic humility, learned empathy and the understanding that communication is about everyone. Stacey offered advice for emerging leaders to ask questions, to actively hear the response, even if we don't agree with them, because in the end it's about the collective outcome for the team, the individuals and the organization. Thanks for tuning in and remember leadership without passion limits the depth of your vision.

Speaker 2: 52:22

Never miss an episode by following us on all of your favorite feeds. While you're there, please consider leaving an episode review and let us know what topics you would like to hear about. Be sure to join us next week with your host, Simon Cardinal, for another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front Produced by iGland Studios. Music provided by Ashimel of Music.