E103 - Thriving in a VUCA World featuring Evan Tzivanakis

I’d like to begin this episode by acknowledging the land that I am learning and living on is the traditional un-ceded, un-surrendered territory of the Anishinaabeg Algonquin People.

Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity, and Ambiguity.

Do some, or all, of these words remind you of a work environment or leader....and then make you cringe at the memory?

For almost all of us the answer to this question is yes. Here’s the thing: This environment won’t go away.  And that’s not all a bad thing so long as we can learn how to operate effectively inside a VUCA world. 

Evan Tzivanakis, an Executive Coach & Trainer / University Adjunct Lecturer in Management Development and the Author of ‘’Leading In VUCA Times’’, helps emerging leaders Discover how to lead effectively in a turbulent VUCA (Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity, and Ambiguity) world. Our discussion highlights critical qualities every leader should develop, including emotional intelligence, adaptability, and clear vision.

This episode will discuss:
- Introduction to VUCA and its relevance today 
- The crucial role of emotional intelligence in leadership 
- Importance of resilient leadership amidst challenges 
- Building strong, trusting relationships with team members 
- Fostering a positive organizational culture 
- The significance of strategic thinking and clarity of vision 
- Adapting leadership styles to meet team needs 
- The importance of nurturing and empowering employees 
- Final thoughts and actionable insights from Evan

Evan’s Recommended Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BZ6HCNM3?ref_=pe_3052080_397514860

Chapters

• 0:00 Acknowledging Unceded Territory
• 24:42 Introduction to Trench Leadership
• 50:56 Understanding VUCA: What It Means
• 1:18:38 The Reality of VUCA in Work Environments
• 1:41:10 Interview with Evan Zivinakis
• 2:00:00 Final Thoughts and Takeaways
• 8:20:12 The Importance of People in Leadership
• 9:43:11 Nurturing Culture in Organizations
• 17:01:53 Leadership vs Management: Key Differences

Transcript

Simon Kardynal: 0:07

I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging that I am located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and I am privileged and honoured to live and learn on the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation.

Glen: 0:24

Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front, produced by iGlenn Studios, a show for emerging leaders from all professions to hear from other leaders who have led from the front, made the mistakes, had the triumphs, and are still learning along the way. And now here's your host, Simon Kardynal.

Simon Kardynal: 0:50

Hello and welcome to Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front, a show for emerging leaders. I'm going to throw four words at you volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity. In the leadership realm, we often use the term VUCA and I'm wondering for all of the listeners out there do some or all of these words remind you of a work environment or a leader, and then do they make you cringe at that memory? For almost all of us, the answer to this question is yes. And here's the thing this environment won't go away, and that's not a bad thing so long as we can learn how to operate effectively inside a VUCA world.

Simon Kardynal: 1:32

In this episode you'll hear from Evan Tzivanakis, an executive coach and trainer, university adjunct lecturer in management development and the author of Leading in VUCA Times. Evan will help emerging leaders develop the ability to share their vision with the passion and commitment, giving their people a purpose, a challenge they are willing to embrace and carry on to achieve amazing results. But, as always, it's all is not about me, it's about talking to the guests. So I'm just going to go ahead and say hey, evan, how's it going out there?

Evan: 2:01

Hey, Simon, very good, Nice to see you. Thank you for the invitation. How are?

Simon Kardynal: 2:05

Oh, I'm doing quite well. We've been talking about this for quite some time. We finally made it to recording, which is fantastic, and I feel it's important to put out there to everyone that while I'm in Canada, you're in Athens, Greece. That is blowing my mind away. It's just. I love the reach of just how people can connect with each other throughout the world and be able to create and maintain amazing content.

Evan: 2:31

That's the beauty of the changes that have been happening over the last couple of years and how everything kind of shifted virtually in a few months. So I'm very, very happy to be here. Yes, I think we'll be talking about it for at least six months.

Simon Kardynal: 2:49

So we finally made it, it has been quite some time, and I'm happy we finally got to this point, and I am curious. So, before we get into it, I would like to do the visual introduction, and so for myself, I'm wearing my black Trench Leadership golf shirt with the red leadership logo over top of my heart, my microphone is still black, my glasses are still black rim, I have my headset on. As far as I'm concerned, there's far too much gray hair on the sides of my head and my background is an image of the stone wall with the Trench Leadership logo hanging on it. The logo is still white with a purple halo around it. It's actually quite nice, although the irony is the actual Trans Leadership logo is red. But what can you do? That's what happens if you order something on Amazon and don't pay attention before you hit buy. Now, before we get into it, evan, would you mind doing a visual introduction of yourself?

Evan: 3:39

At least you have hair. You said about your gray hair. I'm in my office, you know. On my behind me you can see on one side you can see my, a bit of my printer and everything, and on this side you can see some of my books. My book just got published couple of um, couple of weeks ago. So I'm in my home office, I'm wearing a work shirt, I suppose, I suppose, and my mic is black as well.

Simon Kardynal: 4:07

Fantastic. Thanks so much for that. Before we get right into this, I'm wondering would you mind just taking a minute or two and describing your journey and really telling us?

Evan: 4:20

Sure you know I, um, I started, you know, I suppose I I wasn't. I didn't go directly into executive coaching. Um, I graduated, you know, my first uh. My, you know I, I graduated in uh straight after. Let me go back a bit straight after high school, um, I went to switzerland. I studied in switzerland. My first actually study was hospitality management. And once I graduated in switzerland and I had a bit of work experience, I moved to the uk. I did my mba there.

Evan: 4:59

After MBA, my first role I was a branch manager for a um for an international company in the UK, where I worked there for around eight years I think almost nine years, so I was responsible for around 75 people. After doing that for around nine years, I was headhunted to help a financial broker expand its presence across the Asia-Pacific region and I worked for that broker as a regional director for six years. That was up until 2017. And then I decided, you know, I was sitting down one night and I said you know what do I want to do? And I decided to share my experiences, to share my mistakes with others and I started part-time to coach and train people and soon it became full-time.

Evan: 5:52

So my path to becoming an executive coach and a trainer was not a direct one. You know, I started my career in a completely different field and I eventually made the decision that a lot of people, I suppose, they are making over the last couple of years to pivot my career, and I started to explore opportunities in coaching and consulting, and then I obtained the necessary training and coaching certifications and gradually built up my client base and reputation within the industry build up my client base and reputation within the industry and it's always interesting when I hear people's backgrounds, the diversity that comes with it and how ultimately things often tend to kind of come together, that there is always a crossover.

Simon Kardynal: 6:36

Regardless of how different their career path may have started, there's always things that from each experience that keep going forward and helping us grow and move into the next stage that we want to go with, and it sounds very similar to that was your story. Does that make sense at all?

Evan: 6:53

Yes, it does and you know it's, it's one of the reasons why I think you might interest in this story why I became into coaching, training and consulting is because throughout my corporate career, I have seen companies that have a mediocre product or service, but their internal culture and the way they manage people is so good and they manage to scale the company really fast.

Evan: 7:22

And on the other side, I have experience and I have seen companies with a great product and a great service, but their internal culture is toxic or the managers never actually got trained to become managers. They just got promoted because they were there for a few years. So I end up realizing that, at the end of the day, it's all about people and, as an executive coach, one of my favorite life lesson quotes is from Maya Angelou, who said I think she said something like I've learned that people forget what you said, people forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. So this quote has been incredibly relevant in my life and my work as a coach, because I do believe, simon, that at the heart of effective leadership is the ability to create positive and meaningful interactions with others. What do you think?

Simon Kardynal: 8:32

Well, I think that there's nothing more important than creating those connections, and one of the things that keeps coming up now we're quasi in post-COVID times, depending on how someone wants to look at it was inside. This worldwide pandemic was a realization that the people matter, that things have to keep going. The wheels can't stop spinning, and the way those wheels keep going is that people are doing the work, and so it can't just always be about the next profit margin or the next quarterly assessment. It has to be an understanding that the people are there to be able to make those things keep going in, not just in the easy times, but also the hard, difficult times, because I really believe that the whole culture of quietly quitting came about when people realized holy, wow, this isn't just about money. I need more in my life, and my organization is not providing that for me. Those volatile times are making things very difficult, and I think this is a great opportunity for us to roll into talking about leading in VUCA times. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Evan: 9:30

You talked about quiet quitting. I came up with a term I'm sure I'm not the only one who came up with this but the great resignation. I call it the great re-evaluation which leads to the great resignation. I call it the great re-evaluation which leads to the great resignation where people just throw the towel and I said you know, I'm out of here, I want to do something more with my life, and you know it's not easy to make that decision. And but if you go around and you ask how many people you know are you happy with your work, you will be surprised that a lot of people are not.

Evan: 10:07

So now, from a managerial perspective point of view, you know, I always say that. You know, leadership is a little bit like a muscle. Every now and then you need to train your leadership skills. And are leaders born or made? Look, I think their leaders are made. And I look if you grew up okay, the environment you grew up with helps, Like if you're a kid that grows up in an environment where your parents have a leadership role, or your father or your mom works in the police, or they're a doctor, or they work in a private organization where they have to take decisions and they have discipline and all that. That all helps.

Evan: 10:50

But if you really want to become a good leader, an effective manager, I think you can learn how to communicate, you can learn tricks, you can learn tactics, you can learn how to do an evaluation and a performance review properly which, by the way, I do think that performance reviews is one of the most challenging things and a lot of times go wrong because people, straight away, put up the defensive mode, we put up an invisible shield and we say but, but, but, but, but I didn't do this, but I didn't know, but I wasn't expecting it. So leading in VUCA times is not easy, and let's not forget that, at the end of the day, leaders and managers are also human. So I think it's very interesting because now is the time for leaders and managers to really forget what we knew and learn to manage and lead and communicate more like human to human. And I'm sure you read the book from marshall goldsmith which says what got you here will not get you there. So yeah, you know that's.

Evan: 11:55

I think it's very relevant, and I think it's also relevant what darwin said, that the species that will survive survive in the future is not going to be the strongest or the most intelligent, but the one who is most adaptable to change. So if you are listening to this and you are a leader, maybe you're running a small coffee shop, it doesn't matter or a big department. Are you adaptable to change, Simon back?

Simon Kardynal: 12:23

Well, I absolutely agree with that. You know, from my perspective in the Canadian Armed Forces, the culture was such where there was just people were just used to doing things a certain way and it was very misogynistic and very, very toxic in many, many ways, and it was kind of hidden under the culture or hidden under the rug and just, and for many, many years it was more of a well, this is just the way it is. So we just kind of figured out, no one talked about it, and then, fortunately, things started coming out.

Simon Kardynal: 12:54

It's been a tough time for the Canadian Armed Forces right now, but it has allowed the forces an opportunity to to have a real hard look at itself and realize what do we want to be, how do we want to present as leaders, how do we want to present as an organization that is meant to be the forward face of the Canadian culture throughout the world? And it's, it's, it is. It continues to be very difficult for them, for the military, in many, many ways, but they are figuring it out, they're working at it and I, my impression is that there's a genuine intention to try and and get caught up. For all intents and purposes and that's a big part of it is now. They're behind and in leadership, creating a culture, once you're behind, it is very difficult to get caught up and be a forefront. Challenging and more difficult really. I'm just saying the same thing twice, but I'm wondering inside the volatile world and a VUCA environment, what are your thoughts with that?

Evan: 13:56

How can people move forward with that? It's easier said than done. You know, I can easily sit down here and pretend to be an expert, but when you go out on the real world and you work with organizations it's not easy. So that's number one, you know. And culture, you know. For me, you know, change is a long process. It's not easy, but for me, culture is like one of those chocolate fountains, the fondue chocolate fountain you see at weddings. It flows from the top. Right, that's exactly what culture is for me it flows from the top.

Evan: 14:34

So the change that you want to see within your organization again, it could be a restaurant or it could be a big department of 500 people as a leader, you are the ultimate responsible, the backstabs with you. So you should model the behavior that you want to see. And I think we, as leaders, we have tremendous influence. Culture influence as this is the two key words over the behavior and the performance of our people probably a lot more influence than we realize. How we do things and the way we work with others, I do believe, in my opinion plays a huge role in the success of the organization. And what is the key, what is one of the duties, I suppose, and responsibilities of the role of a successful leader for me, I would say, is to improve, empower and nurture your people to help them become better at doing their job. Improve, empower, nurture to improve, to help them become better at their job.

Evan: 15:43

You see, management is also important as well as leadership. Management involves what Management involves focusing on managing complexity by planning, budgeting to produce orderly results, not change right. You can't produce change with management. Management is important, but if you want to change, you cannot do it with management. Leadership focuses on producing change, I think, by developing a vision for the future along with strategies for bringing about the changes needed to achieve that vision. I hope I didn't confuse you right?

Simon Kardynal: 16:26

No, not at all. I love that. I'm wondering if you could say that a second time, because I'm thinking that it's an invaluable point when we're talking about leading in a VUCA environment.

Evan: 16:36

Let me press rewind, replace the way I see things from a managerial point of view, as a practitioner as well as a coach. Management involves managing complexity. And how do you manage complexity Planning, budgeting to produce some orderly results? Management doesn't produce change. Leadership produces change. So leadership focuses on producing change by developing a vision for the future alongside the strategies for bringing about the changes needed to achieve that vision. And it's difficult to have, sometimes, a vision in VUCA times, because you don't know what is going to happen, not in five years down the line, but in six months. I mean, things start to improve a lot, but how can you ask a business owner to tell you what the future will look like in 2021 and 2022? You couldn't.

Simon Kardynal: 17:39

Yeah, absolutely, and it's interesting how often governments will try and do that. They'll say okay, we're going to set this up for our plan for the next 15, 20 years, not knowing what's going to happen in six months, not being able to anticipate a worldwide pandemic, not being able to anticipate a recession, although one could argue a recession should have been seen, but that's neither here nor there. It's about that evolution and it's about understanding that, even if we do make a plan, it's okay to be able to evolve with that, to shift with that, because, as you said, as darwin said, you know it leaders are the best. Leaders are the ones that can evolve, that can shift with the, with the reality of where we are in the moment. Does that make any sense at all?

Evan: 18:23

it does make sense. And you know, I think if you have you know, the worst thing you can say to yourself as a manager, or especially as a business owner because what we're discussing here, it applies to anyone managing teams, departments, people is the worst thing you can say to yourself is this is how we've always done it. You know, know. So there are three things you know. I think three character traits that I believe are instrumental to success as an organizational leader in nowadays is resilience, adaptability and empathy. Like resilience, you know it's critical because you know, especially, you know, if you you look at the business world, because business is inherently unpredictable and challenging. Business is like this. So, as a leader, you will face setbacks, you will experience failures, you will have unexpected obstacles. So the ability to mentally, first of all mentally, to bounce back from these challenges and maintain a positive outlook is essential. Then you have adaptability. We have touched upon it. It's another key trait.

Evan: 19:41

The world VUCA you can see my book, we're going to talk about it in a bit is constantly changing and the most successful leaders are those who are able to adapt and pivot quickly. And empathy and and I think some people misunderstand empathy when it comes to their people. The empathy is not feeling sorry for someone, and empathy, I think, is a trait that is often overlooked in the business world, but I believe it is essential for success as a leader. Empathy what does empathy mean? For me Involves being able to put yourself in other people's shoes, understand their perspectives and needs and then go a step further build strong relationships based on trust and respect.

Simon Kardynal: 20:27

What do you think? Well, I agree with you. It's interesting, the topic empathy. I didn't really give it much thought for a lot of years until my mother came to me a number of years back and she said to me you know, simon, and you'd have to know my mother, she had a very sarcastic, curt sense of humor and she just let you know what she thought about things and I appreciated that, uh. But I remember this one time we were talking and just out of the blue she said you know, simon, you you have a lot of empathy for people, but you have almost no sympathy for people. I'm like, and I kind of looked at her for a minute, I'm like, well, I don't know if you just congratulated me or complimented me or if you insulted me or how do you want to look at that? And she's like well, I guess it kind of depends on the situation. Um, and then so we. I thought I sat back and I thought about it for a while and in relation to what you're talking about, I do agree with her.

Simon Kardynal: 21:18

I find that I'm able to categorize and compartmentalize when I'm in a leadership role and having to do certain things. So if I have to get, get into a specific challenge or whatnot and there's a lot of emotions, it's highly charged environment or whatnot. I'm able to take my emotions out of that, put them to the side and understand that the team is going to be having challenges with this for whatever reason, and so will I, and I'm able to understand that to be able to move forward. My challenge comes often is when there's different reactions to that and the emotional side of things kick in and I'm like okay, so maybe I need there's a. There has to be a balance between the two. As a leader, we need to have that empathy to understand that there will be emotional reactions to things and we need to be sympathetic to that. But at the same token, we need to let our empathy drive forward to be able to continue moving and doing what we need to do. Does that make sense?

Evan: 22:13

it absolutely makes sense. And, um, when you said your mother, you know, is your, she was probably. You probably have an irish background.

Simon Kardynal: 22:20

Then yeah, if she was, so she had a little bit of that. Uh, yeah, there, there's definitely in there. She was English and so she did not cut. She didn't cut corners when she told you what she was thinking. For sure, yeah.

Glen: 22:35

Oh, hello there. It's Glenn, the voiceover artist, and if you're hearing me, that means we're at the midpoint of this episode. Do you have an idea for an episode that you feel is vital for emerging leaders? Leave the idea in the comment section and, if your topic is chosen, you will have the opportunity to join us as a co-host during the recording session. So drop us a note and let's talk. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you, and if you feel we've earned it, please tell your friends and leave a review to help us grow our following. And now back to the show.

Evan: 23:18

You see, when you talk about things and we talk about trucks and everything, one of the things I see sometimes managers misunderstand is let's become a bit practical here is when they do performance reviews, when they sit down with their people to do a performance review. Look, performance reviews are not supposed to motivate your people, so they are not motivating and they are not developmental activities. They are not. So what is a performance review for me? I do believe that performance reviews are necessary to provide feedback to people if your systems that you have in place and your measures do not already do it in place and your measures that do not already do it. But another mistake I see If you're doing a performance review with somebody with implications for salary, bonus or promotion, this automatically puts people on the defensive mode.

Evan: 24:27

They will automatically shut down, put up an invisible shield. So development reviews should be motivating and compelling. That's a different story from a performance review. So if you're sitting down to do a developmental review, you should be able to liberate your employees energy and excitement about what, about the future, about that vision that we have discussed, because a leader is somebody that can provide his people or her people what they cannot provide for themselves, like if I can provide to myself a company and a vision, I don't need to work for you. If I can provide myself income, I don't need to work for you. So you see. So? So okay, you can do performance reviews and developmental reviews, but please do them both, but at different times of the year in different settings, and do not make one depending upon the other, because they're totally different.

Evan: 25:52

Yeah, they need to be different as well it is an essential part of creating a complementary culture of development. To parallel, I suppose, your organization's culture of performance and talking about the future. Parallel, I suppose, your organization's culture of performance and talking about the future, you know, 3,000 years ago. I'll tell you a story. I wasn't around, it's a real story. It's a real story 3,000 years ago. Or if you believe that souls come back, maybe I don't know, but anyway, 3,000 years ago it's a real story.

Evan: 26:31

Alexander the Great with his troops was marching in Persia, in what is today Iran, in a desert, to go conquer the next town, I don't know. So they were in the desert and they ran out of water. So his general ran to him and he said my king, I will take some of the best men, the strongest men Now you're from a military, you will understand that and some of the strongest horses, and we will go around to find water and we'll try to come back as soon as possible in a couple of days. And again, there was no watch up he couldn't watch up him at the time to find water, right. So he said you, king, you, my king, you take some rest. Yeah, so off they went. They came back after a couple of hours with uh full of fresh water and the crowd was cheering and everything.

Evan: 27:22

It's a real story, it's written in the books. And the general went to Alexander the Great, kneeled in front of him, took off his helmet, put fresh water and gave to Alexander the King. He said my king, please drink some fresh water. And you know what Alexander the Great did? The king and at the time he was like the president of the United States, he was the emperor of the whole of the whole world, um, his empire. He, you know what he did? He, he took the helmet and threw the water on the floor, wasted the water and said to the general you know what? He said water to my people first. So there is your mba master class on leadership two minutes. You don't need to take any masterclass, I just saved a bunch of money. You see, not you, but you get my point right.

Simon Kardynal: 28:14

I know exactly what you mean.

Evan: 28:17

I say to my coaches and trainees sometimes if you are a manager or a business owner or a leader, your customer is not the customer, your customer is the employee. Like this is the mentality. Okay, look, if you're an SME business owner, maybe sometimes you will roll up your sleeves and serve some customers, maybe, but it's a mentality thing. Like, you should treat your employees as your customers, you should treat your employees as your customers.

Simon Kardynal: 28:49

Yeah, that definitely makes sense because it changes the tone in how people are even being spoken to in a lot of cases. You know and I think this is a great way for us to roll into talking about some of the, with Alexander's story in mind, and talking about the dynamic between the leader, the manager and the employees what are the three main or three essential leadership qualities that you feel are essential for leaders going forward in these VUCA times?

Evan: 29:21

Yeah, look, maybe I won't be able to tell you three if you can allow me to answer a little bit different, right? Yeah, of course, take the path you need to go.

Evan: 29:32

I do believe that there is no magic formula to motivating or to energizing a team. You know leadership it's not a cookie cutter approach. So you need to be very much situational. Know can plan chart, you know. You need to know how to wear different hats to different situations. Obviously, if you have a crisis moment, you might need to be more directive and more controlling, and if everything goes smooth, you might need to delegate more or be more of a coach. So there is no magic formula to energize a team. Leadership is not a cookie cutter approach. You need to be very much situational. That's number one. So what you do, you know, as a leader is you don't motivate.

Evan: 30:23

And this is the mistake I did, you know, when I first graduated from uni. And this is the mistake I did, you know, when I first graduated from uni. I got my first managerial role at the age of 25. I think I was just lucky, to be honest to start with, and then I was managing people 10 years older than me, so I thought I need to motivate them and all that. But you see, I learned a lot of my failures and some of my team members resigned.

Evan: 30:45

You know what you do as a leader you don't try to motivate, but what you do is you look at where you can impact, influence and whoever is going to follow, trust me they will follow. You can bring the water to the horse, but you can't make the horse drink. Not all your employees will want to be there because they want career promotion. So what you do, you look at where you can impact, look at where you can influence and then it's. It's really the Pareto rule 2080 20% of your people will want to develop and then you need to cherry pick your rising stars and work with them to develop them. So by having a relationship with your team as individuals, you will start to learn how to engage them and how to provide development and stimulation one-on-one. So you really need to know your people and in a VUCA world, you really need human skills. That's what you do with the individual. Sometimes some managers come and say to know, sometimes you know. Some managers come and say to me you know Evan how do I engage my team?

Evan: 31:52

I say you don't engage them, you engage one by one, and then that's what you do individually. And then if you have a big department, if you are listening to this and you're part of a big organization, you don't need to do this up down to the down to the last employee, but you do the, you use the same approach to the people directly under you and then maybe you teach them how to do the same, and so on and so on, the culture thing we said right. So for now for the team, this is what you do individually. I believe, now for the team as a whole, what you do, you motivate it and you energize by creating the right environment.

Evan: 32:34

What is the right environment, if you ask me? It is the environment where they feel connected, is an environment where you have kind of paid money into the bank of goodwill, right, by valuing them and providing for them, as I said, what they cannot provide for themselves and why I gave you the example of Alexander the Great. I mean, even just by listening to this example, you want to fight for him, don't you? Oh yeah.

Simon Kardynal: 33:11

Yeah, very much so.

Evan: 33:13

I don't know again. Maybe he was just very good in psychology, Maybe he understood leadership, Maybe he understood people very well. So maybe he was just too diplomatic or too smart he knew. Maybe he was a good politician, Maybe he knew what to say, but it doesn't matter, it worked. So VUCA is not easy. We live in a very challenging environment. It's very difficult to retain talent. I remember, not 10 years ago, but just three years ago we didn't know this kind of hybrid or remote. I mean, we knew it. People work hybrid and remote, but it wasn't a thing. Now, nowadays, whoever you interview, they'll probably ask you can I work remote, Can I work hybrid, and so on and so forth. So we really need to. I think to be an effective leader, you really need to be a people's person, and if you're not, I think to be an effective leader you really need to be a people's person, and if you're not, I think you will find it a bit challenging.

Simon Kardynal: 34:14

Oh yeah, absolutely, I think, because it's relevant to the conversation we're having right now as an example of working from home or telework, whatever the term we want to use. At the time of this recording recording, it happens to be that the federal government, uh, the public servants, the, the union, is striking right now and it's been on strike for two weeks and for two things, where there was a whole slew of things, as one could imagine. But the two sticking points that have come out and are the two items that are preventing things from moving forward is, of course, one always tends to be a pay, which is fair, and the other is that the government of canada has come out and said that all federal employees will be working in the office a minimum of two days a week, so they dropped this giant blanket policy and the union is very unhappy about that. So the mean sticking point that is preventing the unions, uh the, the public servants, from going back to work is this thing where they don't want to have to come to the office all the time or as a minimum of two days a week. And of course, there are multiple sides to this. I'm not going to get into all the politics of it. But the fact of the matter is, working from home is here and it's here to stay. And trying to find ways that blend well for the different unions and the different people, the different sides of these organizations, is a challenge.

Simon Kardynal: 35:28

And when we're talking about, in this particular case, 155,000 people, that's significant, but if it's 10 people or 155,000 people, it's all relevant to the size of the organization and those impacts are there and they're not going away, and it's the leader's responsibility, in my opinion, to be able to sit back and look at everything collectively from an umbrella perspective and say, okay, where can I find connections?

Simon Kardynal: 35:54

Where can I build a community together so we can sit down and move forward? Because in a lot of times my experiences have been where it's a communication issue and people can't really tell. But I always love using the example. I've got my two fingers pointing at each other and more often than not what will happen is the one finger is just a slightly, a little bit higher than the other. The two sides are saying pretty much the same thing, but the connection's not there to create it. So if we could just find a way to find a spot in the middle and put the two fingertips together. Now the communication can flow both ways and people are able to move forward, and I think that, for me, is one of the most important things about being a leader is getting those two tips to connect does do you have any thoughts on that? Does that make sense? Does is it relevant to a time?

Evan: 36:40

it's very relevant. I think it makes sense and due to the fact that many leaders and business owners are too busy running day-to-day, their day-to-day things, sometimes they assume that a positive culture will naturally develop as the company grows, or they may not prioritize culture-building activities in the face of other demands on their time and attention. So culture will not grow because your company grows. For example, just three months ago, just before Christmas, I worked with a company whose leaders had neglected to focus on building a positive company culture. So as a result, a lot of people felt undervalued and disengaged, high turnover, poor performance. So when the senior leadership finally began to prioritize culture-building activities bringing people together, employee recognition programs, regular check-ins with the team members they started to see an improvement and slowly turn the company around and create a more positive and productive work environment.

Evan: 37:55

There is this book I'm not sure if you read it An Everyone Culture by Keegan, which says how to become a deliberately developmental organization, and the main argument in this book is that he said a lot of employers are paying people full time but actually their people mentally work part time because they hide. But actually their people mentally work part-time because they hide. So the book says that a lot of employees. During their work, they hide their weaknesses, they try to be somebody else, and all that. And it says if you develop a DDO, a deliberately developmental organization, people will not be afraid to hide their weaknesses, but they can build upon those weaknesses. Therefore, you will pay full-time and they will work full-time.

Evan: 38:58

You know the Japanese, they have a thing. They say that men have three faces One face when they go to work. Basically, they mean characters like a play. They say they have three phases One phase when they go to work, one phase when they are with their family and then the third is the real phase, who they are. This is what the book says. It says but if you allow people to make genuine mistakes, not to hide their weaknesses and not to punish, and to create an environment where people can bring out their weaknesses, people will not hide from work, they will come in and they will produce and they will not be shy, and then you're going to operate in an environment of honesty and trust, where weakness is not seen as a weakness. Weakness is seen as a part of your experience which can be improved upon.

Simon Kardynal: 40:03

Yeah, I love that as part of the experience to improve upon, because one of the facts of the matter is when we start getting stagnant, that's when things will generally not go very well. People get into that and there's quite a lot of times people think, well, if I just walk around and I'm happy, well then I'm going to create a positive culture. That's part of it, but that's not it. It takes work. Honestly, I feel that it takes more work to create and maintain a positive, safe environment for people to be able to thrive in than it is to just let things kind of go and just kind of go down, because that doesn't take much effort and it doesn't take very long either for things to go badly. Does that make sense?

Evan: 40:53

That's why that's why you should never let conflict and rumours escalate. This is this is one of those practical tips, just like the performance review. As soon as there is a conflict or some rumors, you need to deal with it without any delay, because if you let things escalate, things can go wrong, people can resign, their own culture can be developed. So if you spot, if you sense any conflict or any, rumours you need to deal with it straight away

Simon Kardynal: 41:25

Oh, absolutely, and you know, one of the words in VUCA is ambiguity, and if we, as leaders, allow things to stay grey, as I like to say, the challenge of that is what will happen is the team will fill in the gaps, they will provide that information, whatever it is, and more often than not, especially if there's already a challenging culture in place, more often than not that those choices are not going, or that information, rather, is not going to be something like oh well, the leader's not talking to me, it must be because he's too busy working on my next pay raise. More often than not, it's an assumption that things are going to be even worse. So, removing that ambiguity, being clear about what's happening now, why it's happening now and what the potential for going forward, is absolutely vital, especially in the world we're in. Right now we're getting any type of information is literally sitting on our very powerful phones. It's absolutely vital we erase ambiguity.

Evan: 42:27

It's very challenging to run a company or to run a department nowadays, because it's not only the external environment, it's also the internal environment.

Evan: 42:43

, how do you engage? What you do, who is coming, who is leaving? And then, at the same time, you have AI, and, you have digital stuff, you have technology like is moving so fast. Um, you have competition, you had lockdowns, you had covid, you have shift in behavior, in consumer behavior. So I don't know for you, but for me it's, uh, what you know is the most challenging times in terms of business. Uh, on what we have experienced, I mean, we had the last crisis was 2008. I was in the uk at the time, but it's not the same as today. It was because now we see a shift. I think we see a big shift in, in, in, in attitudes, in behavior. You know fundamental shift, yeah, attitude, behavior, expectations, uh, what people want, um, everything what I find interesting right now as far as shifting goes.

Simon Kardynal: 43:43

So let's, if we're talking about COVID again. So pre-COVID, you know everyone, most people know how things were. You know everyone, most people know how things were. You know everyone was generally going to work, there, was doing all the different stuff, and then COVID happened all of a sudden everyone had to pretty much overnight shift to figuring out ways to be able to keep organizations moving forward while the organization physically wasn't all together. That was a challenge. And and then I remember, throughout those two years as all of that was happening, there was a lot of conversations happening. I remember, throughout those two years as all of that was happening, there was a lot of conversations happening saying, well, this is the greatest thing ever. Look, we've proven that we can work from home. This is going to be the way forward. We're not going to forget this. We promised blah, blah, blah, and now here we are on the tail end of things and organizations.

Simon Kardynal: 44:21

The pendulum is trying to find a way to move into the middle where it's saying, okay, well, yes, we recognize that people can work from home, but there is also value in people coming together physically sitting together in the same space. So it's not about one or the other. The pendulum can't swing all the way hard to the right. It can't swing all the way hard to the left. We need to find something in the middle. But the challenge, in my opinion, is what's that middle space mean to individuals? Because for me it means something completely different than it might for you. But we're both looking for that same middle spot, and it's the leader's responsibility to find that middle role for each person in the team and find a way to get a middle spot that works for everyone as best as they can. Does that make any sense at all? Is that relevant?

Evan: 45:06

it's extremely relevant and you know you, I don't like to give this answer, but the answer, you know my reply is it depends. So I mean, you know, I mean it depends on the industry. Yeah, that's number one. It depends on the industry. Some industries cannot operate, like the food and beverage industry. 80% of the employees cannot operate remotely. Reservation, customer support, online chats you can, but service line is difficult to operate remotely. So it depends on the industry. The other thing it depends on, sometimes you might, humans.

Evan: 45:45

We're a social species. Some people are more introvert than others, but we all like, to different degrees, to socialize a bit. So you know, maybe sometimes, yes, you might have a remote policy, but maybe for a couple of days a week, you need to bring people to the office. We call it for the water cooler conversation. Yeah, exactly, we call it for the water cooler conversation. Yeah, exactly, and that's an important thing to do, you know, to bring people together, to have some people like it. And so you need to decide. You know, maybe you're going to have a hybrid policy, remote, all in, all out, and look at the end of the day, you're not gonna. You, you cannot please everyone. The worst thing that you can do is not to have a policy at all, do whatever you want. It's. It doesn't work like if you say do whatever you want. Again, it's a bit I don't know. For me, I prefer like ideally for me is hybrid. If you were to ask like one or two days in the office, the rest at home. If you are within the same, that's another thing. If you are within the same geographical area, because nowadays, if remote is something that we are getting used to it, you can hire customer support and sales people and marketing people and graphic designers and editors all over the world, in Mexico, in china, in India, in Afghanistan, in Uzbekistan, in Greece, in Morocco, I don't know. So you need to decide the policy. But if you are within the same, let's say, city, I suppose let's say london, whatever, new york, moscow or san franc I think hybrid is good. Hybrid is the ideal because it keeps the balance, you know. And hybrid is also good, I think, for the overall economy as well, for the local markets, for the coffee shops, for the restaurants, for the supermarkets. I think it's good. And I mean it depends also how big is your team.

Evan: 47:53

You'll be surprised, but there are some people that absolutely hate to work from the office. They don't like it, they prefer to work from home. Fine, and there are some other people who cannot work from home. They really need the buzz of the office, especially if you look at people like sales and marketing, which are a bit more different nature. They like to work of the office. Especially if you look at people like sales and marketing, which are a bit more different nature, they like to work from the office. You know, in a call center, I mean, it's easy. It's more difficult, more challenging, to have the same energy when you talk to clients. If you are home alone or if you are in a room with another 20, 50 people, the energy is totally different. So, as a leader, you need to make a decision. I'm afraid what, what works best yeah, oh, absolutely, uh.

Simon Kardynal: 48:34

I know I've used this example a number numerous times, and so the civilian company I work for it's a company called Calian, and their their plan to deal with how to go forward, to decide, is. They sent out a survey and then, when the results came back, it was overwhelming that the majority of people wanted the opportunity to be able to work from home, but they also wanted the option to be able to go to the office, and there were small groups that wanted to strictly work from home, never go to the office, and there was a smaller group that wanted to go work at the office full time. So what they did was the company came on and they said, okay, we're going to leave it up to the individual teams to decide what works best for them, and that, I thought, showed true leadership instead of saying, okay, well, we're going to mandate everyone comes in one or two days a week, we'll see what happens. So it happens to be that my team, because we're spread out, even though most of us are in the Ottawa area, we're quite spread out, even though most of us are in the Ottawa area, we're quite spread out, so we all work from home full-time, and then, one Tuesday a month, we get together for our weekly it's it happens to be Tuesdays we do our weekly meeting and that's the day we get together and we actually sit and meet and we do those things, and that works quite well, and I have the option of going to the office more, more if I choose to. And that's the, and that I think showed true leadership is it allowed organizations and individuals to be able to make choices on what their individual needs were, as long as the organization was getting what it needed. So, yeah, anyways, that's what I think, Evan, we have been having.

Evan: 50:06

about. I think it's a great idea and it empowers the managers to run their teams within small businesses, within the bigger business, empowers and then, at the same time, you, as a senior leader, you can keep those team managers and department heads accountable for whatever is going to happen. So you empower them, you show them, you trust them and then they can run their show. Yeah, absolutely, whatever is going to happen. So you empower them, you show them, you trust them and then they can run their show.

Simon Kardynal: 50:31

Yeah, absolutely, and it was about if we could take it back to that the pendulum. The company was able to find a way to find a spot for that pendulum to sit in the middle for everyone in the team and allow the team to come to a consensus about where that pendulum would sit, and that's the thing it's about letting the team figure out what's going forward. Evan, we have had a fantastic conversation. We've talked a lot about leading in VUCA times and, before we move into the lightning round, do you have any final thoughts no I suppose just you know five.

Evan: 51:04

I suppose characteristics that are important on leadership is number one vision. I suppose characteristics that are important on leadership is number one vision, A clear vision. If you are maybe leading a department or a company, do you have a vision, because a clear vision of where the company is headed and how it can get there? Number one. Number two communication. Communicate that vision. The ability to communicate effectively with team members, shareholders and customers. Number two adaptability. Do you have the ability to adapt, to manage your own emotions as well as those of others? And the last trait is strategic thinking the ability to thinkability, communication and vision are important moving forward for leaders, department heads and business owners.

Simon Kardynal: 52:19

Fantastic. Thanks so much for that. So listen, I am curious before we sign off. If people want to reach out to you, if they want to engage you in coaching, they want to have a conversation, learn more about leading in a VUCA time how can they do that?

Evan: 52:34

Well, they always meet me and the best thing is face-to-face. You know, meet me and grab a cup of coffee, but initially, obviously, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm quite active on LinkedIn, evan Zivanakis on LinkedIn. You can find me there or you can drop me an email at evan at executivecoachasiacom. That's my website, evan at executivecoachasiacom. My domain is my website, executivecoachasia. My services are all over the world, but my coaching journey and my first clients started from asia. Therefore, their website fantastic.

Simon Kardynal: 53:14

Thanks so much for that and, of course, links to the ways people can connect with you will be available inside the show notes. Evan, thanks so much for your time today. This has been an absolute pleasure and I've enjoyed this conversation.

Evan: 53:26

Thank you very much thank you, Simon, thank you for the invitation and I had lots of fun.

Simon Kardynal: 53:32

Yeah, me too. Thank you. Well, that's a wrap from the front. In this episode, we talked about what it is for a leader to lead in a VUCA time, and that means we're talking about volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity. We talked about it's understanding, the need to we try that again. We talked about understanding that it's all about vision, communication, adaptability, emotional intelligence and strategic thinking, and that we have to create the right environment for ourselves, our teams and the organizations. And while none of this is new, really at its core, leadership is all about the same things. It's about how leaders adapt to them and are able to keep moving forward to help themselves and the organization and, most importantly, their team members. Thanks for tuning in and remember leadership without passion limits the depth of your vision.

Glen: 54:26

Never miss an episode by following us on all of your favorite feeds. While you're there, please consider leaving an episode review and let us know what topics you would like to hear about. Be sure to join us next week with your host, Simon Kardynal, for another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front Produced by iGlenn Studios. Music provided by Ashamaluev Music.