E114 – Tuning Up Your Body Language featuring Jane Hanson

Your team is constantly reading you—analyzing every movement, stance, and gesture you make as a leader. Even when you're silent, your body is having a conversation with everyone around you. What exactly is it saying?

Nine-time Emmy Award-winning journalist Jane Hanson pulls back the curtain on leadership's most under-appreciated tool: body language. With insights developed through decades of television broadcasting and leadership coaching, Hanson reveals the powerful truth that humans communicated through body language for millions of years before spoken words existed—and this primal language remains our most trusted form of communication today. 

Throughout the conversation, Hanson shares practical wisdom for emerging leaders navigating the complex world of nonverbal communication. She explains why crossing your arms might undermine your credibility regardless of your intentions, how claiming your physical space earns respect in new environments, and why the pause may be your most powerful (and underutilized) leadership tool. When your words and body language don't align, people instinctively trust what they see over what they hear.

Perhaps most compelling is Hanson's perspective on vulnerability and compassion in leadership. Rather than viewing these qualities as weaknesses, she demonstrates how authentic physical presence—leading with an open posture and genuine engagement—signals both kindness and strength. "I don't think you can be compassionate and not be strong," Hanson notes, challenging traditional notions of authoritative leadership.

What is your body language revealing about your leadership style right now? Listen, reflect, and transform your silent communication to lead with greater authenticity and impact.

Jane’s Episode Links:

1. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/janehansonofficial/

2. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janehansontv/

3. Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JaneHansonTV

4. Website: https://www.janehanson.com/

Jane’s Recommended Book/Movie/Podcast List:

Books: I love to read thrillers simply because they pique my interest. Books that help me escape are my favorite. Tom Clancy and Daniel Silva are two of

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Land Acknowledgment
• 0:49 The Power of Unspoken Communication
• 7:21 Body Language: Our Original Communication
• 21:49 How Gestures Shape Perception
• 33:05 Claiming Your Space as a New Leader
• 41:22 Being Present and Listening Authentically
• 42:59 Final Thoughts on Leadership Body Language

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging that I am located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and I am privileged and honoured to live and learn on the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front produced by iGlenn Studios, a show for emerging leaders from all professions To hear from other leaders who have led from the front, made the mistakes, had the triumphs and are still learning along the way. And now here's your host, simon Cardinal.

Speaker 1: 0:49

Hello and welcome to another episode of French Leadership, a podcast from the front, a show for emerging leaders. Folks, as leaders, we are always being examined, judged, scanned for any sign of anything that we are thinking or feeling, and often the judgments are not coming from what we say. They come from what's not being said, from the way we are standing, sitting holding our arms, not holding our arms. All of it, none of it. It all matters. So the question then becomes how can we use our body language in the most positive manners possible? Well, in this episode you'll hear from Jane Hansen, a nine-time Emmy, award-winning television journalist and anchor, who will talk about the power of body language. Jane will offer advice and insight into helping emerging leaders use their body language to lead their teams. But before we get into it, I want to say hi to Jane. Jane, how's it going out there?

Speaker 3: 1:44

It's going great, thank you, and it's fun to be with the Canadian because I feel a little partially Canadian myself. I grew up in rural Minnesota and we would go up to Saskatchewan all the time and Winnipeg on vacations and for our little band trips and all that kind of stuff and I also am in Toronto and Montreal quite a bit for work trips and all that kind of stuff and I also am in Toronto and Montreal quite a bit for work.

Speaker 1: 2:13

But I noticed that you say the word A-B-O-U-T, just like I do. So I speak Canadian, just for the record. You totally get that. All I need to know is that you love maple syrup and poutine, and we are on our way.

Speaker 2: 2:18

You get your honorary Canadian certificate Excellent.

Speaker 1: 2:20

So you're in, you totally get it, co it. Coincidentally, I like to say that I'm from Winnipeg, because that's where all my family lives, so we maybe we were around there at the same time, who knows, that might be interesting. Maybe we're cousins, who knows? Who knows, you know in the prairies, who knows? It's a beautiful region, though, and not so much in the winter it's, it's a tough, but it's beautiful in the summer. That that is so true, oh, exactly.

Speaker 1: 2:46

Well, before we get into it, I would like to do the visual introduction, and for myself, that means that I am wearing a green t-shirt, I still have my black rimmed glasses, my headset is still black, my gray hair on the side has not changed, the background is still the image of a stone wall with the Trench Leadership logo hanging. The logo itself is white and it's surrounded in a purple highlight, and once again, that's kind of ironic, because the actual logo is meant to be red. But, as always, that's what happens when you buy something on amazon amazon and don't pay attention to the order. But it still looks fantastic. I love the purple. Oh, so do I. I think I I really enjoyed.

Speaker 3: 3:25

That's why I didn't even bother sending it back, because it looks fantastic it does, even though I don't know that I've ever seen a canadian maple leaf in that color before yeah, yeah, I get that with my canadian guests a lot and fair enough, but I I like it, so I'm gonna leave it. Hey, it's your podcast, you can do what you want exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: 3:43

You totally understand it, jane. Do you mind taking a moment and offering your visual introduction?

Speaker 3: 3:49

Well, I am sitting in front of a blurred screen, and why do I have it blurred? Because behind me you know what. This is really weird, but I have a whole bunch of articles that have all been written about me, and including some from because I worked for NBC in New York for close to 30 years. There are articles up here that one of them's from 1985. This one's from 1995. This was in the New York Times, the one way up in the top. I actually won an award as a Mother of the Year, and that's from back then. My daughter was only five at the time and I thought they were being a bit premature with the award Because we had a long ways to go before I was going to be a mother of the year, I think. So that's where I'm sitting, but I'm also in Florida right now, and it's you know we're heading towards summer, which means I'm heading up north because it's going to get hot.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Oh darn tootin' it is. That's, that's wild. And so do you, do you spend? As we were talking earlier? You were saying that you were. You spend quite a bit of time in New York. So do you spend a lot of time in New York up during the summer months, or do you kind of do yeah, I do.

Speaker 3: 5:04

I do, um, you know, having lived and worked in New York, really from almost all of my adult life, because I moved there when I was 23 years old, which to my father's chagrin, because you know, we lived in a town of 2,500 people in rural Minnesota named Canby. That had no stoplights. That's how small the town is, and so for. And the town slogan was be all you can be in can be. So for him to move to the Big Apple, the big city, was quite a shocker and it took him a while to accept it. But then he started showing up all the time visiting me, my mom and dad I'm going wait a minute, I thought you didn't like this place. And he goes. Oh, the food's so good.

Speaker 1: 5:44

It's one of those things. Thought you didn't like this place and he goes oh, the food's so good. It's one of those things.

Speaker 3: 5:48

You cannot love aspects of it, I guess.

Speaker 3: 5:50

That must be the case Exactly. So that was a big move for me too, because I was working at the time at a television station in Cedar Rapids, iowa, and so to make that kind of a move was a pretty big step, but it was wonderful, and there's nothing like being a journalist a broadcast journalist in New York City, because you just watch history being made before your eyes Never knew what was going to happen next. Every single world leader you could possibly imagine you talk about leadership all the time and emerging leaders. These were leaders who had already emerged. They were full scale and on top of their game, and I had an opportunity to meet so many of those people and interview them and spend time with them, and so it was just. It was amazing. It was always an amazing experience, and I am truly grateful for to have had that opportunity, and they taught me how to do what I do now, which is teach people to about leadership.

Speaker 1: 6:50

I teach them about how to be a great presenters, about how to do interviews, about how to hold their body and what their body says, which is what we're talking about today well, you know, I can always tell when I'm talking to someone who does a lot of interviews either presenting, presenting, giving or taking those interviews because you just perfectly segued into the whole point of this episode, which is to talk about body language. So I'm just going to kick it off and I'm just going to ask you right up front why is body language so powerful?

Speaker 3: 7:20

First of all, I want you to, I want you to think about it. Historically, we have been walking on earth for anywhere, depending on what you believe for 2 million to 14 million years. We've only had a spoken language for 160,000 years, which means we communicated through our body, and that was the way we showed fear, we showed love, we showed every single human emotion. That's what we did. In fact, one could argue that much of history we don't even really know, because so much of it was written before we had a written, so much of it happened before we had a written word or before we had a spoken word. And so, therefore, we, you know, how do we, how do we even know?

Speaker 3: 8:07

It's true, but body language is totally innate and in today's world, we don't recognize its power as we should. We need to think about every little gesture, every bit of eye contact, every, every posture that you have. It's all sending signs, whether it's your personal life, your professional life, whether you're on television doing a podcast because my voice is part of that, by the way, as is yours. We imagine what somebody looks like and is based upon their voice. And you know, smiles go through a microphone. You know that right.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Oh yeah, most definitely. Yeah, I can. I've learned to hear that, yeah, so that's that.

Speaker 3: 8:56

That's why it's so important and your words have to be in sync with what your body is saying, because if it's not, then you're off balance and you then become untrustworthy. We trust each other through our body language and we equally distrust each other through our body language. It's really important that people focus on this, that people focus on this. I challenge the listeners today to turn on their television set and put on a movie. Turn the sound off. You will know what the story is by just watching how the actors are moving, how they're relating to each other, etc. You know what's going on. Do you remember? There were silent movies for a while I mean, obviously that was long before our time but there were silent movies before they figured out how to put sound on them. It was silent and yet everybody got the story. So that's why body language matters.

Speaker 1: 10:03

No, absolutely, and you really hit. I feel you really hit the nail on the head when you were talking about how our words have to match our bodies and what we're saying and doing Before we started recording. I was talking about how, when I was in the military, I just happened to like to put my hands on my hips or the other thing. I just happened to be one of those people who likes to cross their arms, before I really started paying attention to that. When I started getting into positions of leadership formal leadership authority I'm standing there with my arms crossed. In my mind I'm just thinking I'm comfortable. But what I didn't realize was that my team members were a lot of people were taking that in as well. He's closed off. He's not really listening to my opinion or what I have to say in the matter. Regardless of what I said afterwards, a decision had been made.

Speaker 3: 10:47

That's absolutely correct. The crossing of the arms means you're either being intimidating, it means, as you shut down, you've put up a barrier of some sort. Unfortunately, especially for women, it can also just plain mean you're cold. It Unfortunately, especially for women, it can also just plain mean you're cold. But in its purest form, crossing your arms means you're not interested and that, whatever somebody's going to say yeah, whatever somebody's going to say, you don't care. To your point, you've made up your mind, and gestures are really interesting because you can.

Speaker 3: 11:27

There are so many different gestures one can make, but what I really preach is, of course, they have to match your words. We also use them as illustrations to make what we're saying be heard better, but I also believe that they're like a second language. Think about it. I mean, think about how, when maybe you're like if you're traveling to Europe, you don't speak the language and you're asking for directions and all of a sudden, people are pointing and you're using some sort of almost sign language to get around, what is that? That's using our body language and communicating.

Speaker 3: 12:14

So gestures become very important. There are gestures that are offensive, there are gestures that send really bad signals and there are gestures that are very loving and exclusive. I mean inclusive. So we want to be careful about how we use our hands. We also want it to be natural, because in a conversation, all of life is a conversation, no matter what you're doing, no matter if you're giving a speech, no matter if you're sitting in your living room talking to your best friend, all of life is just a conversation. And the more you can make it a conversation, the better it's going to be. We use our hands in a conversation, so we don't want to not use them. If you don't use your hands, guess what happens? People go. You know they're not using their hands. Simon isn't using his hands. He's rigid. They're not using their hands. Simon isn't using his hands. That he's rigid. Oh, I don't know if I like this guy. He's not. He's not willing to be vulnerable enough to use his hands.

Speaker 1: 13:12

Oh yeah, absolutely. I know for myself. I'm a spilly beer talker, so when I get all excited my hands start flying all over the place. You can usually tell when I'm driving if someone has cut me off or if I think someone has cut me off it's probably a better way to put that. My hands are all over the place and you know I'm like I'm loud and whatnot.

Speaker 1: 13:30

And people have just gotten used to that. So when I stop doing those things, there's also people are going. That is that's also not like Simon. That must mean he's upset, or whatever the decision might be, and it's it's about knowing. In my experiences has been. It's about knowing knowing your audience for sure, but also being aware of being in the moment. Does that make any sense at all?

Speaker 3: 13:53

Or of course it does. It means that you, you have to recognize yes, well, it's a signal, you're sending a signal and the signal you're sending is that something is different. So it's up to me, as your audience, to say, hmm, what just happened? Because his behavior is completely different, and I'm only taking that from the fact that he stopped using his hands. So he's irritated, he's upset. Maybe some thought went into his head that now you've got to figure out how to reengage him, which is a huge in today's world. It's especially crucial, why? Because we're overstimulated here in the United States. Do you know what the average attention span is? What?

Speaker 1: 15:00

I'm not sure.

Speaker 3: 15:02

Eight seconds.

Speaker 1: 15:04

Interesting.

Speaker 3: 15:05

Now that doesn't mean you've totally lost them, but it means they're not giving you their full concentration. So we have to then always keep people engaged. How do we do that? We do that by using our voice. We do it by using our body and our words, but the voice and the body are much more um are much better instruments to re-engage than our words and I would imagine and I'm just curious here, hear up the whole thought.

Speaker 1: 15:42

I would imagine that, as a famous television personality such as yourself, the question I have is how, in the medium of television, were you able to know if you were keeping someone's attention and keeping them focused on what was going on? Because it seems to me, in knowing nothing about the industry, it's a one-sided conversation.

Speaker 3: 16:05

Well, it is a one-sided conversation. Well, it is a one-sided conversation, but you also have to learn how to re-engage, and if you watch television newscasts, for example I was an anchor, I had shows of my own, I was a host you learn a few things very quickly, one of which is a television camera, and much like a camera that's on a Zoom meeting, by the way people. So I want you to pay attention to this drains you of about 30% of your energy, so it's important to amplify your energy. What is energy? What is energy display? Energy usually ends up displaying itself in body language and in the tone of your voice, so you have to continually re-engage. If you watch a newscast, you will see that there's interplay between people. There's a lot of movement. There's the way that we use your eye contact, the way you use your body. That that's always trying to make sure you're reengaging.

Speaker 3: 17:06

Of course, the way we knew if we engage them or not was the fact that we got the ratings every single day. The ratings were good, we figured it worked. If they were bad, it was uh-oh. What did we do wrong? Let's take and we got them. They're minute by minute, so you could literally know which stories worked. They're a minute by minute, so you could literally know which stories worked and you know sometimes you, you know you'd be worried about being off your game. I always did a little trick, which was, I would imagine, somebody else on the other side of the camera that I was speaking directly to. I think it made it more authentic. I also think it made it become more, so much more, of a conversation.

Speaker 1: 17:47

Oh, and the conversations are massive. I've held many episodes where we talk about the power of conversations and power of words and active listening and all the things that come in with that, and it's not even just actively listening or watching what's what's being said. Like you know, we're talking about body language. It's about what people are saying and doing, how they're saying and doing it. One of the running jokes in with my daughter and I is that I have Garfield eyes. So when I'm really really concentrating on something I'm, I tend to squint my eyes and I didn't even know I was doing this and I just assume people knew that that meant I was considering or thinking about what's going on. But actually the message I was sending was and my daughter says it looks like Garfield.

Speaker 3: 18:31

So are you trying to? Is that something that you're trying to change?

Speaker 1: 18:36

Oh, yeah. So I heard about this years ago my daughter's 21 now and she told me this back when she was in her early teens and when, especially, I learned about it when I was teaching basic training in the military. And I'm trying to explain something to a student and if they were struggling, I remember one time one of the students was really struggling with something it was some type of a drill maneuver, so a movement. And I'm sitting there, I'm looking at them, I'm trying to understand I've explained the particular thing a few different ways that I know how to and I'm standing there and I'm looking at this person with my eyes deeply furrowed because what I was thinking was trying to find ways to re-explain or re-attack this issue to help the person succeed. And I was really really deep in thought and the member actually said to me Sergeant Cardinal, I'm trying my hardest. And I knew that I could tell the person was trying and I'm like, yeah, I get that, I'm just trying to understand what's going on and and how we can figure this out.

Speaker 1: 19:33

And, like the person, oh, I thought. I thought that you were upset with me and that you didn't think I was putting the effort in, and that's why I'm so nervous. I'm like, okay, whoa, so when we had a very quick conversation, it's okay. Well, no, I know you're putting your all, all your all into this. I we're just trying to, I'm trying to help you be as successful as possible. I'm not kidding. The next time we did the drill maneuver, it was perfect because I would we were able to release that member of that stress and I also learned a lot and understanding. Okay, well, this, this is affecting people, even though I don't understand that, and that was a jewel, a leadership jewel for me that I've carried forward. It's, it's, it's interesting.

Speaker 3: 20:10

It's interesting how, how, when you have those honest discussions that it could, it teaches you so much and that way and the other lesson I just learned from you is you really can learn something from your children, even when they're just a tween.

Speaker 1: 20:28

Oh yes, oh yes. She's done that to me twice. There was that time and she got me on the ever-popular well, how do you know? So when she was growing up, we would always make sure if she decided she didn't want to eat something and like I don't like that. Well, have you tried it? Well, no, then how do you know?

Speaker 1: 20:47

And so it came, we were getting we were moving and some friends of ours were had made fresh sushi. I had never tried it because I don't really like seafood too much, and so my, my 12 year old daughter tried I was had tried it and she's like I love this and it's like, dad, you should try it. It's like no, no, it's, it's not for me as well. Have you ever had it before? No, well, how do you know? Then, oh damn, you got me, so I tried it and now I love sushi, but uh, there you go kids have the nuggets too they have great nuggets.

Speaker 3: 21:22

I love it.

Speaker 1: 21:22

Oh, they really do um, and so I'm curious. When we're talking about the body language and the perception of body language, that seems to me I love your thought matter, but for me it seems like it's a two-way conversation. As long as both sides are cognizant of it and paying attention to it, there's a whole side conversation that's happening you had mentioned earlier. It's a. It's like a second conversation that happens. Do you have any any further thoughts on that at all?

Speaker 2: 21:49

Oh, hello there. It's Glenn, the voiceover artist, and if you're hearing me, that means we're at the midpoint of this episode. Do you have an idea for an episode that you feel is vital for emerging leaders? Leave the idea in the comment section and, if your topic is chosen, you will have the opportunity to join us as a co-host during the recording session. So drop us a note and let's talk. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you, and if you feel we've earned it, please tell your friends and leave a review to help us grow our following. And now back to the show.

Speaker 3: 22:30

I'll give you a little example of how it can be a whole second language. Have you ever been at either an event or a cocktail party or someplace where there's a lot of people that are kind of networking and they're all? They're all in a room and you're all moving from. You know, talking from person to person, and the person you're talking to is looking consistently, looking over your shoulder, and you begin to recognize that what they're doing is they're looking to see who else is there and not paying any attention to you, and the signal that sends is well, I'm looking for somebody more important or somebody that I'd rather talk to, and it's a total wrong move. If you really want to go, look for somebody else to talk to. What you say is it's been so great meeting you and thank you for this conversation. I'm supposed to meet somebody. I'm going to go walk and see if they're here yet, or it's my job tonight to go mingle, but thank you and maybe I'll see you a little later. Maybe I'll see you a little later Instead of what you're doing, which has now made that person, that the person who's observing you looking over their shoulder.

Speaker 3: 23:54

It's made them truly uncomfortable and they're going well, I guess, and it's demeaning and it's like a put down, it's very subtle. So I there's, there's a lot, so that's a conversation that's occurring that you don't really you know, you need to be aware of. That's a conversation there. It's just the way your posture is, the way you might be sitting. If you lean forward, for example, it means you're telling. It can mean you're telling somebody something very special, or you've got a really important message to give. If you're, and it's almost like that's something you can use, it's like you're telling them a secret in a certain way. So leaning forward is something very special. The way you're standing, are you slouched over? I have an old poster that has two people standing side by side. One of them is standing up, straight and tall and the second is slouched over and the poster says underneath one it says good person and underneath the other it says evil person because they're slouching. It's the same way if you're slouching in your chair when you do not have a definitive good posture, it sends the message that maybe you're undisciplined, maybe you don't care that you are not somebody of interest.

Speaker 3: 25:18

Think about people when they walk into a room. Somebody who walks into the room, tall, upright, firm might put their hand out to shake yours. You want to see that person. If they walk in the room and they're slouched over and they, you know, maybe they're shuffling a little bit with their feet you're going. Oh, do I have to talk to them? Another little trick sit in a street corner and watch people passing by. You're going to make up a story about every single one of those people, none of which might what might be true, but it's the signals they're sending, by the way they're walking, by the expression on their face, by the way they're moving their arms, by the way they're dressed. You're going to make you're going to. You know, the pace at which they're moving. You're going to make a decision about them has nothing to do with who they are make a decision about them has nothing to do with who they are?

Speaker 1: 26:07

Oh, very much so. And and when we're talking about leaders, specifically brand new leaders, either to their first leadership experiences or brand new to a team how we present ourselves is how we're being judged, and it's very important that we remain aware of that throughout the whole process of everything that's going to be happening. And do you have any thoughts or tips or tricks that people might be able to use to enhance that first experience?

Speaker 3: 26:32

Well, this is if somebody has been hired and now let's say they're going into their first meeting, a lot of people decide that they're going to just listen and learn. People decide that they're going to just listen and learn, but I believe and sometimes they'll take the last seat available in a conference room. Maybe they're sitting in a row of chairs that's behind the table or they'll do something like that. I say don't do that. Claim your space. You've earned this job, you've been hired for it and now you need to prove your value. And in today's world, where we move very quickly and we all know that people are, they don't stay in a job for a lifetime and you don't have months and months and months to prove yourself. Take your seat at the table, claim your space, ask a question, come up with an idea. Don't be afraid to do it. And when you do, don't do it tentatively. You may be pre-qualified by saying, or you might even want to introduce yourself. Why not take a moment and say hello, I'm Jane. I'm brand new to the team. I'm so happy to meet you. What's your role here? And you can.

Speaker 3: 27:49

And, by the way, I'd get to the meeting early. I get to Zoom meetings early, because I then have, because virtually sometimes this is you know we've got to. We can't leave without talking about what happens in Zoom. Well, you can still use your body language. We can't leave without talking about what happens in Zoom. Well, you can still use your body language.

Speaker 3: 28:06

I go on to Zoom meetings early so that I can talk to the people who were there early and get a little feel for them and understand what they're talking about, understand what they're saying, so that I now know how I can get them to contribute to the meeting. And I just it's like I'm taking a weather report what's the attitude, what's the feeling there? So I just suggest that if you really want to become a good leader, make yourself known and make yourself known early on. And I don't mean by being rash or by being loud or being offensive, I just mean valuing yourself, being respectful, but introducing yourself and making a great first impression. You know that old saying you never get the second chance to make a first impression.

Speaker 1: 29:00

Yeah, and that's absolutely true, and that's actually a really great point to bring up, as, as I was thinking about that, it reminded me of something I heard, two things I heard from a leader. I had, many years ago, a very strong leader, and one of them was when, as a very practical example of things, when I was about to have, or when he was about to have, any type of formal conversation with someone, whatever it was about good, bad, didn't matter he made sure not to be sitting behind a desk and leaning back in his chair.

Speaker 1: 29:29

He's like OK, I'm going to make eye contact with this person, I'll slide my chair around to the side to try and create an environment. That was not necessarily perfectly equal, because in the military we have a very clearly defined hierarchy, for for good reasons, uh, but understanding that we're both people and we're going to sit there and we'll we'll have a conversation together and and that was that was a great tidbit. I remember that I still try and do that to this day. But then I also think of when I first got up and I was first began doing public speaking events.

Speaker 1: 30:01

If you remember, earlier I spoke to how I have spilly beer hands and when I would be doing that, when I get all animated because I'm excited, because I'm in the moment, I'm all happy my hands would be all over the place, and I quickly realized in the beginning that that was taking away from the message that I had. So then what I did was I just tried to stand there like a statue to make sure I wasn't moving my hands. I'd put them, them in my pocket or whatever Exactly, and the sound. You can see where I'm going with that. That was even worse than not being myself.

Speaker 1: 30:30

So now what I've done for myself is I found a way to find the middle ground. I usually have a pen in my hand or something to hold and I can fiddle with a little bit, and I also, in the beginning of every single speech, I tell whoever I'm talking to, so we're all on the same page. I'm a spilly beer talker, my hands are going to be around a little bit, so, but here we are and I think that knowledge helps people, and when that's out there, that also emphasizes stronger points. Do you have any thoughts on that? Very long-winded, simon.

Speaker 3: 31:02

Well, I do. I want you to. I want you to to. I would like you to learn how to to better use your spilly beer hands, and I don't want you to have a pen in your hand, because when you have a pen in your hand, then that's distracting, because you tend to start using it in ways that you don't. That don't look professional, um, so I want to back this up to how you started this, when you talked about in the military how somebody would walk around the desk and and sit so they could have a real conversation. Uh, desks are barriers and as are podiums.

Speaker 3: 31:42

I do not believe that there should be conversations that take place behind desks or behind podiums. Even when you're giving a speech, I think that you should be on the stage and you should be talking to the people that are there, and you talk to them by getting closer to them. You never want to have a barrier, because it instantly sends the wrong message. So I believe that in your office you should have a place where you can have people sitting, and I mean, you made the point about the equal distance, of how high the chairs were and that sort of thing. Have them equal, but think about what that message is sending. Whether it's a good, whether you're giving a, it's a good conversation or a bad conversation you still want it to be a respectful conversation. Yeah then, um, when you get on a on a stage and you've got I mean there's you can sometimes make fun of yourself by by talking the hands. But I would prefer that you think about practicing and rehearsing ahead of time of how you're going to use your hands. I advise people to make notes If they're giving a speech and they know what messages they've got. Find places in that message where you know you're going to gesture in a certain way. That's going to be illustrative of the point. So you know.

Speaker 3: 33:13

Just a quick little example from my television experience. I would literally write into the script on the teleprompter I put a little smiley face if it was a place where I should smile. Or I put a little. I put a little smiley face if it was a place where I should smile. Or I put a word like pause where I knew I should take a pause because I was making an important point that I wanted people to be sure they got. And, by the way, a pause is the time it takes to tap your foot, so it ain't forever. So all of this stuff becomes. It becomes for leaders. If you can learn how to do these things, they become second nature with practice.

Speaker 3: 33:57

The other thing that happens and now I'm going to talk about the pause for just a minute more the other thing that happens when you pause, which is the most underutilized tool we have in our arsenal is it shows courage and it shows bravery, because most people don't like dead air. Oldest reporter's tricks in the world is you finish answering a question and I don't say anything. You rush to fill that space and that's where you get into trouble, because you say something you didn't want to say. It's interesting. A pause indicates confidence. There's a lot of statesman quality to it. Watch great speakers. They pause, they have the.

Speaker 3: 34:49

And, by the way, one other thing about the pause is if you pause, you won't be doing things like um, uh, you know, like right, those crutch words. The crutch words go away if you have a simple pause and if you're well prepared. So my suggestion is that if you're going to be making a speech or a presentation, rehearse it. We've all got iPhones these days or whatever kind of you know. Whatever system you're using, we can all record ourselves, record yourself. Look at it. Say I loved how I said that I hated how I said that those gestures were out of sync. Wow, that was really cool. Nobody else ever has to see it, but it will help you learn how to be better at this whole body language thing. And the better you get, the more you focus on it and think about it, better of an impression you're going to make on people.

Speaker 1: 35:50

Absolutely. I think of when I first started this whole podcast journey. I have zero experience when it came to any type of media background or whatnot. I was in the infantry and an aircraft maintenance technician and then became an aircraft maintenance administrator. Sure, I was used to getting up in front of people for various speeches and different things like that, but more often than not it was based inside an environment that I had been in my entire adult life and talking in the side of this podcast while I had completed the degree in leadership, still very new to me and I'm talking to people I don't know more often than not. So that brings its own set of stress and levels with it, and the big thing I found in all of that was when I was going through these speeches and talking with people was to be in the moment, and that's challenging a lot of times to not move on to the next step and think about the next thing that's coming up. Do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Speaker 3: 36:50

I think there's something in that. Yeah, it's called being present. And again, getting back to that attention span thing, people know, when you're not present, your eyes drift, you might. You might be kind of hesitant. When you start to respond to something, people know it and and we are overstimulated and and so that's a problem, that's an issue. How do you be present? You got to focus, you got to make the effort. It is one of the most respectful things you can do to another human being, and I know I keep using that word respect. I don't think we have enough of it in this world and it is what a true leader does. A true leader doesn't scream and yell and belittle people and make demands. A true leader listens, responds. They share the wealth, so to speak, of information and knowledge and they listen. Listening again, we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. Listening it becomes just as critical as what you're saying and listening. When you're truly listening to somebody, that means that you are present. That means that you are present.

Speaker 1: 38:18

So listening is a core, core leadership quality. Oh, very, very much so. And the body language that we're sending out there if we're not listening people can tell.

Speaker 3: 38:28

They can just by how we're standing.

Speaker 1: 38:29

We can tell by that for sure.

Speaker 1: 38:31

Even in the beginning when I was doing this podcast one of the things I would often try and do in the beginning when I was doing this podcast, one of the things I would often try and do in the beginning I would be talking to the guest saying, hey, just so you know when I'm looking away, I'm not, I'm not ignoring what's happening, I'm writing notes to try and make sure I don't lose my train of thought as we're going forward. I've since kind of abandoned that, because what I've realized is, more often than not, the guests that I'm speaking with they understand that this is you know, we're doing something specific and because of that I need to be able to write the notes down. But it was very important for me to have that type of a conversation because I didn't want to leave the assumption in there. So that might be some advice that I would offer to leaders If you're not sure, don't leave the space for the gaps, don't leave the room for assumptions. Just talk to people, have those conversations and explain.

Speaker 2: 39:13

Hey, this is how I like to do things.

Speaker 1: 39:14

Does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 39:16

Absolutely it again, it fosters understanding and we want our communications, our conversations, to be one of understanding. Sometimes this is why I hate text messages a lot, because you can interpret something so differently from the way it's meant. So never have text messages that are not clear, because it makes people come up with something wrong. If it's an important message, deliver it in person or deliver it over the telephone. There's too much room for misinterpretation in person or deliberate over the telephone, there's too much room for misinterpretation.

Speaker 1: 39:56

Oh yeah, and I find, like for myself, the general rule of thumb is, if I've had to send more than maybe three notes, if that's a conversation, let's. Let's have a phone call, let's get together, let's do whatever and we're able to figure it out from there. Because, like you said, it takes out a lot of that, takes out a lot of that ambiguity that will inherently be involved in things, because we all read people and messages, words, differently. We we see that we place the emotion in different spots and that's exactly the same in body language.

Speaker 1: 40:24

For myself, I I have a bit of a bad back.

Speaker 1: 40:27

That just comes from being 48 years old and having done lots of stuff in the infantry and not paid attention when I was bending over for parts when I was in the air force.

Speaker 1: 40:35

But so quite often I need to stand or I'll sit, I'll be sitting talking with someone and I'll realize I'm slouching and no, I can't do that. So I'll make my back ramrod straight and someone might be thinking, if they don't know the history about that, let me think at all. Simon's bored, simon's getting fidgety. Well, no, simon is worried that he's not going to be able to get up in the morning out of bed, so I have to do that more often than not. I'll just explain that, hey, you're going to see me get a little fidgety, or I might, even I'm going to stand for a while, but that only means it doesn't mean I'm bored or I'm I'm anxious. It just means I'm, this is going on and that having those conversations directly tied to our body language is the way to be able to understand each other. Do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Speaker 3: 41:19

well. No, I think what you're saying is absolutely correct. If, if you have something that is going to make you be appear to be less tolerant or appear to not be not listening or appear to be disengaged, tell them. You know, for example, if the you know, I've had days in my life when I've had, like a foot injury, which means I have to sit a certain way and and I've just simply said I've got a really bad foot and this is what it's going to, this is what it's going to be, and I just want to tell you that so that you'll understand that I'm not sending you a bad message. So so it's important, I think, to being honest, you're allowing yourself to be vulnerable. That a very important word these days vulnerability?

Speaker 1: 42:11

Oh yes, it's. It's one that gets used a lot, and I think it's interesting from a military perspective that you know vulnerability equaled weakness, and now we talk about how vulnerability equals strength. It's interesting how that dynamic has completely changed. So I'm curious, just before we wrap this up, what would you think are the three largest body language mistakes that new leaders could make?

Speaker 3: 42:39

Bad eye contact, I think is number one, because eyes are the gateway to the soul, so you want to look into people's eyes. The second, I think be would be not listening. I think that would be. I think that's a crucial miss tactic. Um, the third one, um, I think it's actually, I think it's that word vulnerability.

Speaker 3: 43:08

I think we have to allow ourselves to be human, and it's interesting because I work with a lot of women leaders and male leaders and there's huge differences between the two. Women are considered to be more nurturing, and yet when a woman is aggressive, she's considered to be you know the B word that rhymes with which and when a man is aggressive, he's considered to be a strong leader. Let's go follow him into the trenches Powerful and yes, but so? So I think, vulnerability, which means allowing yourself to show true humanity, and you know I have a friend that wrote a great book that's about being kind. It's called the Myth of the Kind Girl. I can't remember something like that, but anyway, it's all about how kindness is a superpower and this woman is a fabulous leader, and the point of the book is that if you are kind even in the bad moments, it is another sign of leadership, because it shows once again that you're brave, that you're brave enough to allow your compassion to lead. And if you lead with compassion, which is all about body language, it's the way, the facial expressions that you have, the way in which you hold your body, the openness and openness is leading with your heart, your heart and your chest come first. Heart, your heart, your heart and your chest come first. All of that allows people to understand that you are a compassionate, kind, strong. Because you can't.

Speaker 3: 45:05

I don't think you can be compassionate and not be strong. I really don't. I don't think you can be nice and not be strong. I really don't. I don't think you can be nice and not be strong because it's and respectful. If you're respectful, you're strong. All those words means a human being that has thought about themselves, has thought about how they are going to present to others and has thought about how they're going to have real conversations, that they're going to be present in that moment, that they are going to be honest, forthright, and that they care. I mean, there's another. There's another saying I'm hearing a lot these days is I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care.

Speaker 1: 45:56

And that's really what's happening in a lot of businesses and I'm just finding it throughout, throughout, leadership teams, everywhere oh, I experienced that type of I haven't heard that exact phrase used, but I hear that often when I'm speaking to leaders in various industries about how the shift has changed from people more interested in the strictly nine to five make a paycheck go home. They want their organizations to be authentically involved in social changes and how does that benefit themselves and the organization and the planet and all of that together and there's a lot to be said for that, and I think it's important for people to remember that and people can tell if the organization is trying to be completely honest, bullshit, a bullshitter. You know they can tell that when that's happening.

Speaker 1: 46:44

Jane, this has been absolutely, oh, absolutely, absolutely, jane. This has been a fantastic conversation. We've talked a lot about body language and how emerging leaders can learn how to use that to enhance themselves and their teams, to help nurture and grow both themselves and their team members. I am curious, before we head out, do you have any ways that people might be able to reach out to you if they want to carry on this conversation with you?

Speaker 3: 47:09

Well, of course I do. I have a website. It's called janehansencom, which is H-A-N-S-O-N, so I can always be contacted that way, and I have an email. That is also very simple because it's jane at janehansencom, so I'm easy to find, very easy. Oh, and that's the way it needs to be. There's this thing called Google.

Speaker 1: 47:37

Have you heard of it? I've heard about it. I don't personally don't think it's going to take off. I've heard it sits on some type of network, but I don't know. We'll see. I I'm skeptical.

Speaker 3: 47:49

This has been so funny how it's become a verb.

Speaker 1: 47:51

Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's become a verb yeah, exactly, I'm going to go do some Googling. Yeah, exactly Right, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today and I hope that we're able to carry on this conversation again in another topic down the road.

Speaker 3: 48:08

Love to. I got lots I can talk about, and so do you.

Speaker 1: 48:11

Absolutely A boot. I got lots I can talk about, and so do you. Absolutely A boot, a boot, a boot, a boot. Well, thanks so much, take care. Thank you Simon. All right, Okay, so with that, that was fantastic. What'd you think? I had fun. I loved it. Yeah, I thought that went really well. There was a lot of strong points in there. I agree.

Speaker 3: 48:33

Anyway, wonderful chatting with you, I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 48:37

Well, thank you so much for your time today. I'm very appreciative. This has been a lot of fun, and I love talking to people that know Canada.

Speaker 3: 48:44

It's always a treat, there you go.

Speaker 1: 48:47

All right.

Speaker 3: 48:48

Bye.

Speaker 1: 48:49

Well, that's a wrap from the front. In this episode, we talked about body language. We talked about how all of life is a conversation, how everything we're saying and doing we're not saying and not doing is a conversation. We have to remind ourselves that our words as leaders need to be in sync with our bodies, that our body language truly is a second language. Thanks for tuning in and remember leadership without passion limits the depth of your vision.

Speaker 2: 49:20

Never miss an episode by following us on all of your favorite feeds. While you're there, please consider leaving an episode review and let us know what topics you would like to hear about. Be sure to join us next week with your host, Simon Cardinal, for another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front Produced by iGland Studios. Music provided by Ashimel of Music.