
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front, hosted by Simon Kardynal, is a leadership-themed podcast for emerging leaders across all professions to help navigate those intricate moments while leading from the front. In this podcast, expert guests speak about their triumphs, their mistakes, and how they have learned and grown from their experiences.
Each episode offers advice, inspiration, and practical tools to help leaders as they lead 'from the trenches'.
Throughout the series, Simon uses personal and professional experiences and connections gained through 29 plus years in the Canadian Armed Forces as a Senior Non-Commissioned Member, a Master of Arts in Leadership, and his experience within a private sector company.
Trench Leadership offers frank and honest conversations with leaders from diverse backgrounds and professions to talk about the ever-present challenges in a dynamic and ever-evolving world.
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front
E118 - The Power of Stories featuring Shaun Bernstein, Eh!
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #5 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2025.
How do some leaders effortlessly build connection while others struggle to gain trust? The answer might be simpler than you think—they're master storytellers.
Shaun Bernstein, a journalist-turned-lawyer-turned-Chief Storyteller at The Write Stuff Agency, unpacks the transformative power of narrative in this compelling conversation. With disarming candor, he shares his own journey of career pivots, burnout, and reinvention, demonstrating in real-time how authentic storytelling creates the "know, like, trust" foundation essential for leadership.
Even in today's technology-saturated environment, our fundamental human need for connection remains unchanged—and stories are the most powerful tool we have to satisfy that need. What makes this conversation particularly valuable for emerging leaders is its practicality. Shaun offers guidance on which stories to share, when vulnerability is appropriate, and how storytelling can bridge divides between team members who might not naturally connect.
Whether you're leading a team for the first time or looking to deepen trust with your existing colleagues, this episode offers both inspiration and actionable advice for harnessing the hidden power of your own stories.
Listen in and discover how transforming your leadership is just one story away.
Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #5 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2025.
Connect to Trench Leadership:
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Trench Leadership Website: www.trenchleadership.ca
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Are you looking for a podcast editor/producer? Do you enjoy the quality of the show? The editor of Trench Leadership, Jennifer Lee, is taking new clients. Reach out at https://www.itsalegitbusiness.com.
Reviews are the best way for the show to know what is working, what needs improvement, and what to talk about in the future.
If you have a topic that you're passionate to hear more about, feel free to reach out at simonk@trenchleadership.ca to connect and share your ideas.
I would like to begin this episode by acknowledging that I am located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, and I am privileged and honoured to live and learn on the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation.
Speaker 2:Hello, you're listening to Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front, a show for emerging leaders from all professions to hear from other leaders who have led from the front, made the mistakes, had the triumphs and are still learning along the way. Produced by Jennifer Lee at it's a Legit Business, a podcast launch and management company. And now here's your host, simon Cardinal.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front, and in this episode I am super excited. I have been trying to get back to podcasting for a while, as everyone is aware that a few months back I had to stop for quite a while, but I'm back to it. And this episode, this guest, this is the reason I get into podcasting. This is the reason I started doing this and the reason it is so powerful for me, because stories matter. Everything we talk about, everything we do, everything we say ultimately leads to a story, and most often, the feelings we hold dear and close to our heart they're attached to a story that we have built ourselves and experience we've had and turned into a story. Stories are powerful. They're how we communicate and, without realizing it, we relay these stories to get our points across. And we do this because stories engage us, they pull us in, they make us part of the conversation. In fact, stories are so powerful that the statistics show the human mind is 22% more likely to retain the facts of a story versus just some random facts. And so, as emerging leaders, how can we use the power of stories to our advantage? That's easy. We're going to talk to Sean. Sean is a journalist turned story or, sorry, journalist turned lawyer turned storyteller who's going to offer his story explaining how the story of his journey has brought him to power storytelling as a career path. How cool is that? Sean will offer his thoughts on the importance of stories and also offer some emerging leaders about some tips and information about how they can create the best stories possible.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming we'll hear some stories while we're doing that, but, as always, no one wants to hear from me. They want to hear from the guests. So let's bring in Sean and let's chat. Hey, sean, how's it going today? Pretty great. Simon. How about yourself? Fantastic. I am so excited to be doing this episode with you. We have been talking about this for a couple of years and we finally made it. I can't thank you enough for your patience. That's a whole story in itself about how we finally got to this point, but we'll get there. Before we get into it, why don't we just take a couple of moments and tell us about you? Let's hear from about Sean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, my pleasure, and I'd love to tell you sort of a bit of my story as we go through this, because really in the end we're talking about the power of storytelling, as you did in the intro, and it's all about that know, like and trust. And you know, your listeners right now don't really know me, but if I tell you my story a little bit you're gonna get to know me, you might get to like me because I try to be a little funny, a little charming, and then if you know and like me, you're gonna trust what I have to say next. So that's where it all comes from, my story, that whole multi hyphenate nonsense that I kind of had to read out in the beginning. That kind of walks through the journey.
Speaker 3:My most my educational career was debated between journalism and law and so I'm doing both. I did go to journalism school actually started out in Ottawa, where you are once upon a time at Carleton, and their journalism program Didn't finish, wound up doing a grad program back in Toronto. Loved every second of it. I was producing at CBC for CBC Radio, just you know, living the dream as I thought. Only problem was job market was not exactly as into media at the time as I was, so not a whole lot of opportunities to go off of. Really wasn't sure what to do with my life, wound up selling my soul and went to law school. So I went to law school down in beautiful Windsor where it's always a couple degrees warmer than Toronto. It's very pretty. Got the nicest waterfront in the country, as far as I'm concerned, okay maybe Vancouver.
Speaker 3:fine, Vancouver is pretty amazing, it's true, but nicest waterfront in Ontario I will give to Windsor any day.
Speaker 2:I'll give you that one that's fair.
Speaker 3:The canal is nice it's one of the nicer waterfronts in Ontario but I digress Spent a couple years down there. Waterfronts in Ontario, but I digress. I spent a couple years down there, finished with a law degree. You don't specialize in Canadian law schools. You learn a bit of everything, but I really fell in with labor and employment and human rights.
Speaker 3:I liked helping people. I like being able to kind of work one-on-one and helping someone through a problem Next to you know family and criminal law. Our jobs are one of the most important things in our lives and the things that we hold really dear. So it's a huge part of your identity and when that job is lost or when you have to take someone's job away, it's a traumatic move. So I really got to help, you know, through those scenarios, especially with the human rights work, and really help people out of jams, which I love doing.
Speaker 3:What I hated was the business of law. The business of law is absolutely brutal. It really is a tough industry. There's a reason why there is such a mental health crisis in the profession and I became part of that mental health crisis and that was really why I left. I actually wound up leaving twice and the second time I said I'm never going to do this again as long as I live. And I have held true to that promise so fast forward.
Speaker 3:I was, you know, doing some contract legal review work just to pay the bills, but I really wasn't sure what was going to come next. And my wife, who's much smarter than me, on my worst day, elbowed me in the ribs and said me on my worst day, elbowed me in the ribs and said you're a writer, go and write Harder than me. On my best day, said to me you know you are a writer, go and write, go out there and do your thing. I had won I've always been a writer and I'd won a couple National Writing Awards and I knew that I could write. I knew I could tell a story. What I really didn't know is if it was a business.
Speaker 3:My impression, however misguided, was always that you know writers don't like the living Writers. Are, you know these starving artists on the left bank of the Seine in Paris? You know chain smoking and you know chomping on baguettes and sitting there with a notebook like this lost, you know 50s image. That was my view of a writer. And for all of those, there are the tom clancy's and the james patterson's and john grisham's and you know whoever else, um, is, you know, huge today? Uh, george rr martin or becca yaros or whoever else who's making crazy money. It's all the same toolkit. It's all the same 26 letters, it's the same vocabulary. They're just doing something different in a different way. And I said maybe there's something here.
Speaker 3:So I, you know, with no background in marketing or business, started a marketing business and Hannah Shingle said, hey, I'm available. And the work started coming in. And this is about six months pre COVID. So you know, interesting time. To be self-employed as an entrepreneur actually was not such a bad move at the time. I mean, as hard as lockdowns were, it was the big kick in the butt for businesses realizing they had to get their online presence into shape. A lot of businesses that took it for granted realized, oh hey, wait a second, we need to actually get some fresh content out because our stuff from the 90s isn't going to cut it today. And we you know kind of things kind of went from there. So I'm now in my sixth year of this business and, having the time of my life, it's grown and evolved, and so have I.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I love that story. I mean it's incredible how people are, you're, you're driving down a certain path and you're like this is going to be it, this is what I'm going to do, this is my calling. And then you realize, you know what? Maybe maybe there's another calling, and I think most people they experienced that Like for myself as a young kid.
Speaker 1:My dad was in the military and I knew I just always knew I wanted to be in the military. I looked at him when he wore his uniform and I remember thinking, wow, he's doing something important and he knows that. I remember thinking that as a kid it was a little disappointing when I was saying that to him one day, expecting this amazing response of the gas. I'm and it's the greatest thrill of my life to be able to serve my country. And he said well, I joined because it was it was the mid 70s and I needed a job and it was good. It was a good pension. At the end of it I'm like, well, that is, that is not what I was expecting to hear, but good to know. And he's not wrong. It doesn't make what he did any less valid, but his path took him down that way for that reason. And then I joined I still joined the military and I went and I did all of that and I did it because I believed in the higher calling, the purpose of that.
Speaker 1:And then many, many years later I realized, okay, this has become my entire identity, how do I not do that? And I, I shifted my career path and I shifted in a different direction, to something that was more in line with who I was at that time. Because those evolutions happen and and I do believe that when we're going through those types of things, if we pay attention to what's happening, that is, us shaping our own story and how we're able to go ahead and do what we're going to do Does that make any sense? Does that resonate at all? I think you've cut out of. If you can still hear me, I can hear you, but, uh, you're, but I've, I've, I've lost you okay, here one sec, all right okay, that, that's fun, can you can hear me?
Speaker 1:okay, though? Oh, what is going on here? One sec.
Speaker 3:Oh, you got me there. There we go. Yep, Now you're. Now you're back. Your connection dropped.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's strange, that figures, of course. Yeah, sorry about that. Uh what? Uh what was I saying?
Speaker 3:Uh, talking about sort of shaping your own story. And you know you talked about your dad. That all picked up, okay, and then you were kind of going into sheesh where were you?
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I'll pick it up from what my dad from shaping our stories. We'll go from there, Sure, so so, yeah, so, so, as we're shaping those stories, if we're really paying attention, that's, that's the story of our lives, and we need to know where we're going and where we've been, to make sure we know where we're going and make sure we're on that path that we want to go at. And so the question I have for you does that resonate? Do you think that makes sense? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think very much. So, you know, my whole view is that I've hit several walls in my life and when I hit the wall, I don't stop, I go left or I go right and I make a decision and I pivot and I turn. I've given keynotes about this and it's really all just about pivoting and learning how to pivot and staying agile in whatever you do, because you don't know what's coming next. I started a sales job. I was working for a recruiter, doing sales for a tech recruiter, and I started in 2008, the day that Bear Stearns crashed, and basically was there with him for a couple of months through literally the start of the worst economic crisis that we had seen in decades. Terrible time to be doing high level sales, just awful. And so, you know, I thought that that might have been part of where my career was. And no, it's okay. This is a good cue that I have to do a pivot.
Speaker 3:I was not headed to law school. My LSATs were not cutting it. I had, you know, written a test a couple times. You have a max of how many times you can do it, but I've written a few times over the years. It wasn't getting there. I was preparing for a life of HR. I had a job working in recruiting that I was, you know, enjoying. It was a bit of a crazy job. They wanted me to stay, they did not want me to leave for school. They were thrilled with me and, you know, those test scores weren't great and I said you know what, okay, like I'll, I took the weekend to think it through I'll make a career out of this. That's wonderful. And some things came up that you know made me change my mind and I realized very quickly okay, let's, let's do this, let's find a way to make this happen.
Speaker 1:And I did, and I'm pardon me, I did and I'm grateful that I I made that move Because, again, just that pivot and you know you hit the wall go left, you go right, you keep going, and it's that it's about that pivoting that is so important because, as like, especially as a new leader, quite often you're going to hit that wall. Actually, it doesn't really matter at what leadership level you're at. You're gonna, you're gonna be driving along, you'll be doing whatever it is you're doing and you're gonna get hit. And, more often than not, when you hit that point, it's gonna okay to be. Okay, what do I do? How do I fix this? How do I keep going forward? And we're going to rely on our experiences to be able to guide us a little bit. And it's those stories of the things that we were thinking about when we had an impactful moment, saying, oh, I remember this time when this happened and this is what we did. That's a story. Those things matter.
Speaker 3:And taking those and taking them forward really, really matter. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think being able to talk about that pivot and just staying agile instead of recognizing where opportunities exist and that it might not be where you thought it was and it might not take the shape that you thought it did, but if you are able to think quickly and on your feet, you're going to see those windows of opportunity and you'll be able to seize them. There's such a beauty in this life of saying yes. You know that one of the freedoms that we have is the freedom to say yes and to be able to seize opportunities. And we are so much more fortunate in every way in our lives than we do.
Speaker 3:And we're really at a loss when we don't so recognizing when those come, taking chances, taking risks. The worst can happen if something doesn't work out and you try something else. We rephrase that the worst can happen if something doesn't work out and you try something else. You move on, you try a new way of doing something. But there is so much out there if you're really willing to kind of open your eyes and see where the opportunity lies, and you're absolutely willing to kind of open your eyes and see where the opportunity lies and you're absolutely right and take the chance.
Speaker 1:That's okay. And if you, if you land, if you stumble me, it it's fine, it's. It might be a kind of a fun story for you down the road. One of the the most pivotal stories I have for myself, when, uh, that I can remember. That was very, very impactful for me and it still, to this day, has affected how I will react in different situations or less so now, because I like to think I'm a little more mature but it really affected how I would interact and how I would act as a leader was I was very, very tiny, very scrawny little Simon Cardinal in 1983, probably, and in my school.
Speaker 1:So I was nine years old and we're doing our thing and our class was doing a I don't know what you would call it a fundraiser, and we were running around the gym and you know I'm nine years old and the idea was that we were, with finger quotations, running to Disney World and in my brain all I heard was we're going to Disney World and I actually thought we were going to Disney World. So here I am in this class. It's grade three. We're all in the big circle in the middle of the gym and the gym teacher says, hey, listen, does anyone have any questions? So I put my hand up and I'm like, yeah, I have a question. Am I going to need a sleeping bag? And everyone started laughing and they're freaking out. I was, and I still I did.
Speaker 1:That day I remember not even understanding why people were so upset so or not, that they were upset, why they were laughing. And so I went home and I said this to my parents. I'm like I don't get it. We're going in my. My parents were laughing at me.
Speaker 1:I'm like, okay, well, this is not good and that that embarrassment that stuck with me for a very, very long time and, depending on how confident I am in a particular situation, the feelings of that will come back and get to me. So how do I deal with that? I've learned that that is a thing that I have to deal with and I work my way through and I push through and I will take the chances and I'll ask the questions. If even if I think it's an obvious question that everyone else probably knows the answer I'll at least ask it and then I know and I'm able to go going forward. It's not easy, but I do, and I'm able to force myself to do that. So I'm using the story of when I was a kid to help me understand when I'm struggling as a leader. Do you have any any thoughts on that at all, any examples or what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Oh for sure. And I find, look, you know, you got a couple of years on me but I'm getting older myself and with age I'm learning a lot from experience. I'm learning to forgive myself for a lot of those things. You know, I've got a pretty solid memory and I can remember, you know, stupid things that I have said over the years or times that I have unintentionally hurt people or embarrassed myself or what have you. And I think as I get older I realize, look, I'm a human being just doing my best, I try to do more right than wrong and I really have tried hard to do more good than bad, really have tried hard to do more good than bad. And so, forgiving myself, you know, those mistakes, those transgressions, those you know dumb remarks, etc. Learning to kind of let it go, and it is very freeing, it gives me a new sense of confidence in myself.
Speaker 3:I find, even in my business, you know, in the last couple years I just dealt with a difficult situation not long ago and I was actually very proud of myself because I had a lot more confidence in how I dealt with things than I would have even three, four years ago. I would have been quaking in my boots to have a difficult conversation with somebody or have any awkwardness, and I kind of said no and I was able to stand up for myself and it was a very, very freeing moment of hey, I am in the right, I know I'm in the right and I know that I'm making the right decision for me and I have to go with that. So that comes with learning, that comes with age. I don't know that there's a way that you can learn it early on. I think experience really is a great teacher.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that experience of getting through it and realizing that you'll get through it. Even if you stumble, you'll get up. You'll get through it, it's fine, it really is okay. It's not the end of the world. I just recently, our Lady Peace made their way through Ottawa recently and they're my favorite band when I was a kid and still my favorite band now, and there's a song called Clumsy and in it they talk about stumbling and scraping your knee because the shoelace tripped you again and that that hit me as well, because I'm like that's, that's what life is Like.
Speaker 1:It's not an easy thing to go and learn these things and not everything needs to be this, this giant life altering experience. Uh, when I was learning to ride motorcycles, uh, it was, it was the fall, it was the end of the first riding season and I just wanted to go around the block really quickly and I knew that I was rushing. So I, because of that, I had the wherewithal to put my, my safety boots on, but I and my, my, my helmet, but I did not have the proper jacket with the armor on. I didn't let the engine heat up and I was not paying attention. I just was just very quickly going to go around the block, I came into this one little weird S turn on my street. I was doing 10 kilometers an hour. I shifted gears. Next thing I know I'm looking up at the sky and the lady who was walking her dog was laughing and stunned at the same time because the bike had fallen away. Four stitches on my elbow and my pride got hurt. Hurt, but I learned from it.
Speaker 1:I don't rush. Sometimes you just need to make the mistakes and and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. And, as a leader, making those mistakes is okay. It sucks. It sucks when people are looking at you to not make mistakes. But, like we were talking about before we started recording, people are people, are people and everyone is going to make mistakes. You can be the head of state, you can be me, you can be anyone else. It doesn't matter. Those mistakes will happen. It's what we do with them and how we remember them as we go forward. Does that make sense? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:Oh, hello there. It's Glenn, the voiceover artist, and if you're hearing me, that means we're at the midpoint of this episode. Are you considering starting your own podcast? Are you confused or overwhelmed and don't know where to start? Well, jennifer at it's a Legit Business is a podcast wizard who can help you get started, provide advice, consultation and help you along the way. Trench Leadership has been using it's a Legit Business for over a year, and Jennifer offers personalized service, catering to the podcast's unique needs and desires, truly hearing Simon's requests and being instrumental in realizing Trench Leadership's vision for each episode. If you want to get started, contact Jennifer at jennifer at itsalegitbusinesscom and she'll help you realize your dreams. Trench Leadership is always striving to improve our content and provide valuable insights for leaders across all professions, and to do this, your feedback is crucial. So drop us a note at simonk at trenchleadershipca and let us know what's working and what can be improved. And now back to the show.
Speaker 3:It makes great sense. Look, you know, you act with the best information you have available and you really take the time to be thoughtful and weigh it out. You make what you think is the right decision at the time. And part of leadership is acknowledging you've made a bad call and acknowledging when you know what you've done is maybe not the right decision for everybody, or what the consequences are, and having the self-confidence to know that, okay, maybe I made a wrong decision. That does not mean I'm a bad person or a bad leader. Acknowledging it, acknowledging the ramifications, apologizing when necessary, moving on making another decision. The hard-headedness of being married to that kind of thing is the hubris that really brings leaders down. And if you can avoid that with a little bit, a little bit of humility, uh, I think you are in good shape. I just use the words hardheadedness, hubris and humility all in one sentence, which is, you know, alliteration for the win. I'll take it.
Speaker 1:You must be a writer because you're getting all the big words in there.
Speaker 3:It's fantastic All the all the lawyers and a bit of an asshole.
Speaker 1:So that's that's really what you're hearing. That's fantastic. Get it all out there. I'll keep it all. I'll suck it all in. It's perfect. What, what? What advice might you have for leaders out there who who are worried about their stories maybe not being the most powerful or the most helpful for them? Like, do you think that even exists?
Speaker 3:Look, we've seen a real shift, I think, in leadership, in the openness of vulnerability, and you know the power of storytelling. There was a time when leaders were, you know, big faceless beings. You know someone so and so was in charge and they went unquestioned because, you know, you just defer to their authority and so they were automatically supremely right in everything they did. And those days are gone, you know so. Whether you see it in the corporate space, whether you see it in, you know, in your case, in the services or anywhere else, you see that more now, maybe less so in your world, but generally speaking, especially in business, you see more of that vulnerability, more of that humility, more of sort of the peeling back the curtain and seeing the wizard behind the curtain.
Speaker 3:I don't think we have the patience anymore as a society for that faceless curtain. We really want to see who's involved. It makes us connect with people much better. We recognize now, and especially in a world that robots seem to be taking over quite quickly, that we are only human and we make mistakes and we have vulnerabilities and things that make us unique. And it's that human touch, which is where storytelling comes in, that really does help us connect and relate to each other. Today, when you buy into a brand, you're buying into their story. You know we are all in a crowded, no matter what we do, we're all in a crowded marketplace and what sets us apart is our stories. They're what make us unique. So being able to have that level of openness that can actually put you and your story face forward to an audience is going to be what sets you apart. It's that know, like and trust we talked about at the beginning.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and really. I mean there was a lot of talk about COVID and pros and cons and all the different things, but one of the things it did was force us as a society to remind ourselves that we need each other's company, that we can text each other all we want, but at the end of the day, we want, we crave that connection, and the stories are one of the ways that we we make those connections and, as a leader, that's our opportunity to build those stories, to show some vulnerability, maybe share a funny story, maybe talk about a time that was a little more difficult. It's all relative to the member and what they might want to share and when, and of course, the situation would depend on that. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3:100%. We remember stories. You talked about this at the beginning. They stick with us. The stories that you and I were swapping before we started recording are ones that I will remember. I'm not going to remember everything that either of us said on this podcast. I'll remember a lot of it. But I will remember those stories because they're great stories and you told them well and you were there and you could engage.
Speaker 3:Anytime you hear somebody tell a great story, you really do remember it. There used to be back when George Trombolopoulos had his CBC show and I liked his talk show but he had a segment called Best Story Ever and he had these guests like he had some pretty big names on the show and there would be an independent segment where they'd be filmed sitting in a big easy chair for like two, three minutes telling a great story. And when you get somebody you know who's a notable name, who's been around the block, who's lived, who's had a really interesting career, they've got a wealth of great stories. Half people put up memoirs. It's really just a collection of all the stories they've amassed over the years and so having someone tell their best story ever, there are really great, memorable pieces of oh yeah, okay, that's a crazy story. You know, you get stories that you wouldn't believe unless somebody was actually there in the room and witnessed something.
Speaker 3:It doesn't always have to be the most interesting story in the world, but there's something, especially even when it's not, when it is something more, you know, mundane, we connect with it because it is so relatable. You know, I'm not going to tell you a story of the other day I was driving in my Bentley and a Rolls Royce was trying to race. That's not, hey, I don't have you throw those cars. That's not relatable. That's not a way that we're going to have that conversation. But if I can tell you about something very ordinary that happened to me, you're going to kind of have to.
Speaker 3:If you watch a lot of Seinfeld, it's literally a show about nothing, because it's a show that is so relatable and those experiences are so relatable. That's why that still resonates 30 years later. We resonate with those everyday experiences because we can, no matter how big someone is. So if it's a great story, it's totally outlandish, or it's about a famous figure or a world leader or something huge, very cool, and we read, it's funny and we engage with it. But if it's something totally ordinary, within our own scope of experience. We go oh hey, that sounds like me, I can connect with this person.
Speaker 1:We have something in common and it's that connection, that that's something in common that will bring everyone together as leaders. The challenge is how do we bring people together? How are we going to do that? For myself, in a few weeks, I will actually be deploying all the way up to alert for a few weeks and I'm going to be plunked in with a group of people that all know each other and I'm the outsider, and going to be plunked in with a group of people that all know each other and I'm the outsider and, at the same token, I'm expected to lead this group. So how am I going to do that? How am I going to bring people together?
Speaker 1:I'm already doing that by contacting individuals and say, hey, I'm so-and-so, this is who I am, this is what I do, this is what I know, this is what I don't know. You'll note, the don't know list is significantly longer, but that's okay. We're going to figure this out together and we'll go from there. And then, when we're all actually in the same, the same area, we'll, we'll share some stories, we'll, we'll, we'll get together and we'll talk and we'll figure it out and we'll find a way. We'll find those connections and that that's how we build that trust. At the end of the day, people want to be heard and they want to know that they're. They bring value to the table, and the stories that we use are our way for us to relay that information. What are your thoughts on that? That's my perception, would you?
Speaker 3:agree with that? No, and it's an interesting one because, you know, think about it. If you come in closed, off and guarded, you know, as a leader, that's going to be a real challenge, right, that's going to be a really interesting. So, you know, think about the position that you take as you're going up there, you're leading this whole group of people that you don't know. If you go in there closed and you know, off limits and, yes, you're in the military, so there's a certain level of professionalism and such but even still, if you go in there closed and guarded and very shut down and not willing to talk to anybody, that's gonna make it very difficult to connect with anyone. If you go in there really open and as yourself, with your personality, and even though you're, you know, many years in service and very official and very professional, you can still be a human being while you do. That, it's going to leave that opportunity to say, hey, maybe this is something that I want to get to know and you'll be able to connect with people just as they get to connect with you.
Speaker 3:Look, what do two Canadians talk about when they get together and don't know each other? Two Canadians start to have a conversation. What's the first thing that comes up? The weather. It's the one thing we can all relate to and all connect to. It's banal and it's very simple, but it's a thing that we have and we can start telling stories. You're from Ottawa, but if you've ever been out in a snowstorm and you're shoveling next to neighbors that you haven't met, you start up a conversation because you're both.
Speaker 3:You know under, you know how many centimeters of snow and you start a conversation from there and then you start talking about family and everything else and you really get to know somebody. We are meant to connect with each other. You talked about, you know, covid and the the harshness of lockdowns. We are meant to have those bonds in those relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And the challenge with that is is, you know, the technology exists in such a way that it's easy for us to be connected but not be connected. But some, some people like it and some people don't like it, and it's tough not to judge others for what they want to do with that. As the leader, the trick is to figure out what your team members want and it's not just like, okay, I know john wants this, uh, this person wants that, and then you're done. It's about always doing those check-ins and saying maybe they want some alone time right now and that's okay, but maybe tomorrow they don't. It really depends. It's the leader's responsibility to find a way to build that community, build, build that sense of connection and then maintain it and keep it going forward. And that's really how you build the sense of community and, ultimately, a longstanding trust, because that's what these things are all going to do. Everything in team building is about building a sense and a level of trust. Would you agree with?
Speaker 3:that 100%. No, you are the expert in that and I agree with you completely. It is, you are. You are the expert in that and I agree with you completely. It is very much that no like and trust. So how do you get to that trust? They've got to know you, they've got to ideally like you and how?
Speaker 1:how would you think they would do that? I know we've talked a lot about stories, but are there any specific types of stories you would not recommend, or does it kind of? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:thoughts. Yeah, I think you have to really know your audience and be able to sort of read the audience. So you know there's what. Do you talk about? A dinner party? Well, do you avoid controversial topics? You know when you can. I mean, do you talk about you know personal politics or religion, or you know personal life or you know family issues, that you know a first conversation Usually no, usually you sort of keep things banal and easygoing and you start to really share.
Speaker 3:If you've ever met somebody who shares too much too quickly, you'll know what an awkward and uncomfortable move it can be. So you can start a little bit slow and really gauge your audience and gauge how receptive they are to learning more about you. I just wrote something this evening that I'm going to be posting tomorrow about how, with me, I work with clients from all walks of life, all shapes and sizes, from solopreneurs to multinational corporations. When I work with a client, I treat everyone the same. I am me, I don't change To me. People are people and if you have made the choice to work with me, that's an honor that I don't take lightly.
Speaker 3:but I'm going to give you as much respect and as much consideration, no matter how large you are or what you're paying me, and I'm going to give you my all and you're going to get, you know, the best of the best of me that I can offer you, because I value the relationship, because we are getting to know each other, like each other and trust each other. You know, and you've made that choice to go with me. So for me it's about you know, being able to sort of know that audience, being able to really assess where to go and if people don't click and if they're not the right fit to be, you know, you try to find some common ground. If you have to work together and maybe you know you're not meant to be working together, but you really sort of try to find some way that you can connect with somebody else, there's usually a road in for everybody.
Speaker 1:You know, you bring up a really strong point in that sometimes people just aren't going to get along and and that's okay. Now it's our responsibility to at least put an honest effort in to try and get that to happen. But sometimes it's just not going to. It's just not going to work, it's just the way it goes. It sucks. It's rare, I believe it's very rare, but it does happen. How do we do that? How do we, how do we fix that problem?
Speaker 3:When you have someone who you just don't get along with. You know it depends on sort of what position you're in If you have no choice but to be connected with them. Look, the reality is you probably have a common goal. You know you're probably both working towards the same ambition.
Speaker 3:We spoke, you know, earlier about how Canada's in a tough spot right now, and so you know there's so many partisan politicians. Putting partisan politics aside, they might disagree passionately on many levels of policy, but they realize they've got a greater common goal than the petty squabbles that can come between them, and I think that's a huge part of it. So, yeah, you might have a personality clash, or someone might not be. You know your cup of tea or you're not theirs, and you know if you can get away from a conversation and social situation, that's a different story. But if you are in a position where you have to work with them, okay, what are you both working towards? What is your common goal here? And sometimes people who are, you know, opposites in personality or what have you can actually get on better when they recognize that and play to their strengths to get the job done.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks so much for that, and I completely agree that it's just kind of got to figure it out. Sometimes just the way it is. I know when I was in the infantry way back when I started my career there, a section is 10 people and every single section there was someone that we just didn't like each other. It's just the way it goes is 10, 10 young guys, usually the sergeant's a bit older, but 10 young guys at my time it was all men and uh, someone's just not getting along and for whatever reason it happened to be. More most often than not it was about smoking. I've always been a non-smoker and, uh, more often than not the section was the majority people were smokers and we just turned into a thing and but we'd figure it out eventually. There were some people I just didn't like because they were just like, just whatever reason. We found a way to still, you know, go through and do our assaults and all the different stuff we have to do to do our thing. Sometimes it's just the way it is.
Speaker 3:You're not going to be friends with everyone and that's okay, Exactly, and I you know it's funny in my business I've really come to realize that, look, I joke that I'm too old to be all things to all people and maybe we're not the right fit to work together, and that is completely okay. I will try to help you find someone else. I recognize now, you know, there's a real point of maturity, especially as an entrepreneur, when you're no longer chasing every client and every dollar. And it's tough sometimes if you're starting out or if you know business is slow and you feel like you need to do certain things that aren't comfortable, and sometimes things are uncomfortable, but there are certainly times where you realize, okay, wait a second, this is not where I should be, what I should be doing, and there's a real maturity to that.
Speaker 1:I completely agree with you. It's the ability to recognize that and know that's coming. And again, if we're going to tie this back to stories, if we're, often we'll be like, is this really where I want to be? And we'll look back at a situation or multiple situations and retell that story to ourselves and be like, okay, this is, this is not what I want to do, this is not the path I want to be on, this is not the thing I want to have happen. And we figured out, we make a decision and that's okay. No judgment on how what that decision might be. You know, I do feel that it's important and the spirit of talking about storytelling and how connections are made and how we are able to do that together. It's important for people to understand how you and I got together.
Speaker 1:Somewhere along the way, I was on social media and I was looking at, scrolling around, looking for guests, guests, and I happened to come across a video that you had made and it was telling your story about how you got there and it was Sean it. For me, it was perfect. It was just perfect in in what the story was, the message that you were coming across, how you did the video. There was a little bit of lightheartedness in it, a little bit of seriousness I had. There was a, it seemed. My impression was and I'm happy to say that I feel I was right it was the true Sean coming out in this video and that that drew me in. I was like I must talk to this man, I must record them. I'm sorry it took two years for us to get to this point, but we we're here and those things matter. Our stories draws each other in to really build a foundation, a true solid foundation. Do you have any thoughts on that at all.
Speaker 3:Oh, first of all, you're very kind. I was talking about the video actually earlier today, so I had done that. I believe in I want to say 2022 with a local video production company that I do a lot of work with and I'm very proud of it. It went very smoothly to me. It really was a great intro piece to my business because it's about 90 seconds long. It's sort of an infomercial, a walk and talk. It was shot very well.
Speaker 3:I take no credit for that. I give them full credit. I wrote the script, but I give them full credit. Give them full credit. I wrote the script, but I give them full credit. And it really kind of shows off who I am, both by telling my story and by showing my personality, as you said, in 90 seconds. So in 90 seconds you really get a sense of, hey, I want to talk to this guy, I want to work with this guy, or this is not my kind of guy, and both are okay, both are completely okay responses I'm not offended by the latter and maybe you realize oh, that's not someone who I'd want to do business with. That's fine, that's fine. I wish you good luck in finding the right person for you, but I like that. I am very much. I really came into my business with a shred of ego. I checked my ego at the door. I never had the lawyer's ego ego at the door. I never had the lawyer's ego.
Speaker 3:Thank goodness I had the writer's ego, which is I don't care what you pay me, but my name stays on everything. And I realized that that's a lousy way to make a living. And so I'm a ghost. I'm a ghost writer. I stay in the shadows. I am there, look, I know what I'm doing. I'm good at what I do.
Speaker 3:I'm there to offer the best advice that I can and give a different perspective, et cetera, et cetera. But ultimately I'm there to help you achieve your goals and you know your goals. At the end of the day, my clients own the material. The material is theirs. So I'm there to be me and I'm there to sort of help as much as I possibly can, and I'm glad that you know was something that you saw and thankfully I've been able to help a whole lot of people over the last five and a half years and I'm grateful for every single one. I don't take a single client for granted. It's really a blessed opportunity that I have to be able to do what I do.
Speaker 1:I believe that I would love to, some way down the road, find a way to work with you on something I don't know. I'd love to experience that with you. That would be fantastic, and although I won't have the opportunity right now, I would like to shift a little bit. I think we've talked a lot about the power of stories. If people want to reach out to you, if they want to know more, they want to work with you, how might they do that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm all over the internet. It's kind of where I make my living, so the business is called the Right Stuff Agency W-R-I-T-E. It's a little pun, so the website is therightstuffagency, not com agency. It could be anything. Today I am at Sean S-H-A-U-N at therightstuffagency Instagram. The Right Stuff Agency. Linkedin. Facebook. I'm all over. The Right Stuff Agency. Linkedin. Facebook. I'm all over. The Right Stuff Agency. My LinkedIn my personal also publishes a fair bit if you want to find me as Sean Bernstein.
Speaker 3:And lastly, the last pitch I'll make is that I have my own podcast. So when you're tired of listening to Trench Leadership, you need a break from Simon. Check out Branding and the Beast. Four words Branding and the Beast. I say I play branding and my colleague Alicia plays the beast. She is a phenomenal brand strategist and graphic designer out of currently West Virginia. Which state is she in? Yeah, I believe so. No, she's in Virginia, forgive me. She's a very dear friend and we have two guests per episode talking about different aspects of branding and marketing and storytelling visually and words, and it's a really fun show. I'm quite proud of it. So, by all means, check us out. We're on your podcast platforms and YouTube.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's fantastic. Well, of course, there will be links to all the ways to connect to you on inside our show notes. I promise I'll have a link to the video as well and to your podcast. I'm so happy to hear that you're doing that. I will be going to listen to that when I'm driving home later tonight. Well listen, sean. This has been fantastic and unfortunately, like all good things, this must come to an end. I would like to say thank you very much for your patience and waiting me out until I was ready to get back to doing this wild thing that we do called podcasting. Thank you so, so much, and I'm looking forward to having you back as a guest very soon. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Fantastic. Thanks, Simon. I appreciate it. It was worth the wait.
Speaker 1:It sure was.
Speaker 1:Thanks, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a wrap from the front, and in this episode we got to talk to Sean Bernstein, another fellow Canadian, also in Ontario, canada, and what a pleasure it was. We shared stories, which is the whole point of this episode to talk about the power of stories and how leaders can use those stories to build teamwork and trust and all the different community stuff that I love to talk about, and it's all about being people I'll try that again and it's all about people being heard and understanding the need and the value of telling stories to bring people in, to create those connections that matter so much for all of us as leaders. And Sean also talked about the three main points of a story to get to know someone, to get to like someone and get to trust someone. That's it. That's what we need to do, and you don't even need to like that person, but what you do need to do is you need to be able to build that trust, and that's what stories do. Thanks for tuning in and remember leadership without passion limits the depth of your vision.
Speaker 2:Be sure to join us next week with your host, simon Cardinal, for another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front Produced by. It's a Legit Business Music provided by Ashimal of Music. Never miss an episode by following us wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, please consider leaving us a review and rating Hint we love five stars and let us know what topics you would like to hear about.